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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:02:09:01:51:15 by Padre Pio.

Fans are delusional and also are big hypocrites. They demand for more spending while protesting that they can't spend their own money. They ask you to pay the going rates of wages while their matchday revenue isnt anywhere close to being enough to pay the player's wages, still yet they want ticket prices reduced.

"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

I think its time for you to leave this forum De Times. Your comments are insulting, inaccurate, and not really welcome.

if Santos was booed on then its a disgrace, I have no problem with booing the team off even at half time, but to boo a sub s he comes on is just plain ignorant and stupid

*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

I think he is gazidis. And gazidis has never spent a penny to go to a match.

"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.

When players are getting booed, the fans arent really booing that player, theres a lot more behind it. Really they are booing Wenger and the clubs policies, all their finanical pettiness, obstinacies and stupid statements about 'super quality', their continual spin and high prices. It not just about Santos.

Quote:

eduardo
if Santos was booed on then its a disgrace, I have no problem with booing the team off even at half time, but to boo a sub s he comes on is just plain ignorant and stupid

But most fans are ignorant and stupid.
@Celine, you sound miserable and pathetic most of the time with your constant moanings and delibrate twisting of the truth.
As for my comments, they're very accurate, they're facts that everyone can see, even though they may not admit.
Arsenal makes about 93million pounds from ticket sales meanwhile our wage bill is about 140m pounds. It's the same in every club in the league and the reason for this has been high inflation of wages in recent history. Fans ought to focus their protest at clubs pushing for such inflations by offering unrealistic and unsustainable wages. Fans should be supporting whatever hope the financial fairplay has of succeeding. But what do fans like you do? You rather moan all day about how it will not work and ask for billonaires at arsenal to go the same way as those at chelsea and citeh, forgeting that it's not fair as most other clubs in the league are not be that lucky to have billonaire owners.
When liverpool spent over 130million on transfer and wages of carrol,henderson and downing, where do they expect the funds to come from?
How many person will love to do a business that it's primary income isnt enough to pay for the basic need of that business?
Players wages alone is bigger than what supporters pay to watch them play. Think about that for a second and tell me if it's fair.

"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

Quote:

When players are getting booed, the fans arent really booing that player, theres a lot more behind it. Really they are booing Wenger and the clubs policies, all their finanical pettiness, obstinacies and stupid statements about 'super quality', their continual spin and high prices. It not just about Santos.

Did you read this DT ?

Yes Billy, and i don't want to waste my time going into that because there are so many reasons for why that comment doesn't really make sense.

"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

You seem to have forgotten TV, Merchandise and Sponsorship money DT

"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.

Yes, but there are other expenses from the club such as transfer of players, infrastructure and operational costs etc. Besides sponsorship and tv money doesnt directly from the fans.

You have to speculate to accumulate. Arsenal are now in decline due to under investment. Win the Cl its worth millions

"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.

De Times, I am going to try and explain something to you. I will only do it the once.

The people in that photo, they ARE English football. Even though they are not Arsenal fans, they are worth approximately %1000 times what you are to the club.

I realise you think football, and Arsenal, started in about 1996. But let me take some valuable time out of my busy schedule to explain why. English football is unique, in terms of travelling support, and therefore atmosphere. Only Germany comes close, and that is a recent development, not yet reflected by the players they have playing in their league. In England, a NON LEAGUE club, can bring several hundred, and even sometimes a thousand, away fans, to an away match, even on a Thursday night. Watch a top level game in France, or Spain, and see how many away fans there are. See how many AC Milan fans go down to Lecce of a weekend. Put the classico on, and see how many Barcelona fans go to the Bernabau. That's right, about 200. English football is the noisiest, the most passionate, and the most compelling, on the face of the earth. Its why you watch it on your little television in Nigeria. We INVENTED football fan culture, we INVENTED terrace singing, we INVENTED just about every fan element that has been carried into European football. in fact, De Times, we INVENTED F*CKING FOOTBALL ITSELF.

Now, before you became interested in Arsenal FC, Arsenal were, in actual fact, the original sugar daddies of football. Some very clever, money orientated men, realised that, following the hooligan era, that they were sitting on top of a gold mine, given the fantastic atmosphere that existed at football in the early 90s, together with the fantastic heritage and history of top English football clubs. Arsenal, under David Dein, first played a pivotal part of creating the Premier League, then created the early version of the Champions League, which was specifically designed to create a 'closed' shop of elite clubs, creating a limitless array of wealth. Due to the devotion of the BRITISH viewing public, to their football, they signed a very lucrative Satellite TV deal, and money literally POURED into the British game, and at the same time, many clubs floated on the stock market, and therefore yet more speculative wealth entered the English game.

On the back of this golden Era, Arsenal got hold of Wenger, who was, at the time, a very good manager (not any more, sadly), and, because he was slightly ahead of all other football clubs in exploiting English footballs expanding position, and therefore ability to capture top European talent, we enjoyed a very successful 6 years. NOT hugely more spectacular than his predecessor George Grahams, but spectacular nonetheless, due to a core of never to be forgotten Arsenal players.

And this is how you got to hear of Arsenal football club. We were able to pay the best wages, to the best players, and because only 2 clubs could qualify for the Champions league, things stayed just they way Arsenal wanted for a good few years. Just like Chelsea, just like Manchester City, these 'sugar daddy' clubs that you rally against in your misguided fashion, convinced that you are right, we manipulated football for our own ends.

In the name of expansion, we borrowed a large sum of money, and built the ground. A lot of us don't like it, in actual fact. People like yourself speak of it in hallowed terms, without ever having been there. Its a big concrete item, which people pour into, and pour out again, dispensing as much money as possible into the clubs coffers as the club can make them. In the meantime, we became a 'global brand'. We got bought out by a venture capitalist, with no visible interest in Arsenal football club whatsoever. Suddenly, the best players get sold, memberships go up, the club goes from stating a claim for the top of the league, to being happy with fourth, to languishing in 6th, with no interest in improving.

Yet families, not just Arsenal fans, but any football fan with an interest in visiting Arsenal and supporting their team, CREATING the spectacle that we export to your country, find they have to pay 80 or 90 pounds to get into the place. This isn't 'sustainable' by any sensible use of the word. Forcing the club to abandon its local fan base and turning the place into a tourist attraction wont 'sustain' the club. This is feckless venture capitalism in its barest form.

Ironically, the club has had to create a message, that is carried on the internet forums by people like yourself, who have only half an understanding (if that) of what is going on at the club. I find it particularly sad, that it is supported by people from poor countries like yours, that themselves, have been abused by capitalism. There is nothing intrinsically different to what is going on at Arsenal FC, to what happened in the Nigerian Delta. I am sure that when the oil companies turned up, they didn't announce to your compatriots that they were going to poison the inhabitants and pour effluent into the rivers. In the same way that Gazidis will not announce it to us. It requires people with an intuition, and a full experience of history, to visualise what is happening.

Most, if not all of your points, are made from the perspective of the modern game, from the microcosm of Chelsea, Manchester City, 'fair play', and so on.

What you cant grasp, is that a lot of us don't WANT our club to be a global brand. We don't want the club to be able to push its poxy brand, supported by an army of poorly informed tw*ts, whilst alienating its local fan base. Its OUR club. It is not THEIR CLUB.

Capitalism is an animal that eats its own children. When it has eaten them, it will eat other peoples. Eventually it will go bang. Then there will be a crash. Karl Marx foresaw it. Read his books. Kroenke and Gazidis, they don't care about the crash, they will be far far away by that time.

People ask me why I spend so much time arguing with you on this site. I'll tell you why. What you write on here, makes you an enemy of Arsenal football club, not a supporter. Your support of the board, your constant belittling of fans like the ones in the picture are enabling the club to push its pitch, which is slowly alienating droves of local families from our club.

There is no actual reason why Aaron Ramsey, for example, should earn the money he does. He is a Welsh international. He could have been playing for Arsenal 20 years ago on about twice my wage. He would still be playing the same football in the same way. There is no actual reason why he should earn 50 times my wage, other than he is caught up in the expansionist capitalist lie that all things must get more expensive all the time, except wages paid to the working class.

I realise you will attempt to dismiss me as a racist. You have done it before. I am no racist. When I was a child, I used to go to Highbury and sit next to a guy who used to come over from Sweden every weekend. I have met many fans of Arsenal around the world, and met many wonderful people who love the club as much as I do. But their affinity was as much with the fans, as it was the club.

You as an Arsenal fan are a modern phenomenon. You are not the only person like this, there are many on the internet. That is why I confront you all the time. If it was only you, I wouldn't bother. The persons who have appropriated Arsenal football club for their own ends, know that the local and existing fan base will see through their scheming before the global fan base. And for a short period of time, the global fan base may even attend the ground and pay for the extortionate tickets. But this will crash, in the end. All extreme capitalist models crash.

You will notice I have not mentioned Wenger once in this. He is, by now an irrelevance, a company stooge. He will become a bit part player from hereonin.

Your economic observations above, are facile. If I gave my seven year old daughter a 10 minute resume of Arsenal football club's economic history, and asked her to write it down, she would come up with something similar.

What you need to do, is stop posting vitriolic b*llocks about greedy fans, moronic idiots, and so on. Take a step back, and have some respect. The people in that picture make the game what it is, not some American ranch owning billionaire. The more you fail to take into account the history of our game, the more you embarrass yourself.

thanks

Brilliant

Think DeTimes has handed everyone their as.s on this topic...

just saying


[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

no he hasn't. I have just more than adequately explained why he hasn't. And if you want to be so obtuse as to support his downright insulting comments towards working class football fans, then you can f*ck off as well.

Nice post celine.

"𝗜𝗳 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝗳𝗶𝗿𝘀𝘁 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝗳𝗶𝗿𝘀𝘁. 𝗜𝗳 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝘀𝗲𝗰𝗼𝗻𝗱, 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝗻𝗼𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴."

Quote:

Rockstaar
Think DeTimes has handed everyone their as.s on this topic...
just saying

Laughable, de Times spouts dung and you claim it smells like roses.
just saying - saying what at least put an argument back take on Celines argument.

Read Kupers soccernomics and you would know how much financial bull Gazidis and co speak.

"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.

Quote:

no he hasn't. I have just more than adequately explained why he hasn't. And if you want to be so obtuse as to support his downright insulting comments towards working class football fans, then you can f*ck off as well.

bully doesn't suit you celine and I'm not going to f*ck off because you say so..you should know me better than that besides there's nothing insulting about this from DeTimes

Quote:

Fans are delusional and also are big hypocrites. They demand for more spending while protesting that they can't spend their own money. They ask you to pay the going rates of wages while their matchday revenue isnt anywhere close to being enough to pay the player's wages, still yet they want ticket prices reduced.

about accurate in my book..pretty much got this from me (dont bother responding DeTimes..you did)

Quote:

Laughable, de Times spouts dung and you claim it smells like roses.
just saying - saying what at least put an argument back take on Celines argument.

Read Kupers soccernomics and you would know how much financial bull Gazidis and co speak.

I don't need to read anything about soccernomics when I easily understand the difference between the modern game and the past that Celine is living in...I also understand business very well since I actually OPERATE some instead of sitting about chatting f.ckery about the past like it has anything to do with the current climate of football

football fans see what they want to see...look at Man U..RVP is winning the title for them...yeah lets just forget that they've been pretty much in that position from the inception of the EPL without him

Celine grand standing on some high horse is just silly really

Could you please post an image of yourself celine while writing that? Where's the er.. chuckle smiley when i need one...

"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

Could you please post an image of yourself celine while writing that? Where's the er.. chuckle smiley when i need one...

"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

Ooh, sorry Rockstaar, I forgot you invented modern business, and are the only person on here who understands it. What with everyone else on here being seasonal strawberry pickers and stuff like that.

no celine..I'm not the only one who understands modern business..but you clearly don't...either that or you are the best WUM I've ever come across

most of the@#$%&you bang on about has nothing to do with reality...its usually emotional fan pub talk

personally, I would just like for you to get off your high horse and limit the bullying persona


[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

Youve spent the last 6 years on here on a high horse. Youre on it now.

ok then stop acting like me then..be yourself and don't post when u are clearly drunk


[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

You might know everything RS, but just give socceromics a try, its by a guy who knows more about it than any of us. Yes he understands business and globalisation and he also knows b/s when he hears it, not that he is uncomplimentary about Wenger, in fact he gives him much praise. But like myself and Celine he has spotted that a once good business model has now become counter productive, and that football is not an ordinary business. If it was the same as other businesses then people would ask for their ashes to be spread down the aisle at Tescos.

"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.

padre..I've explained numerous times on this site that football is simply a part of the sports business..its not a food business or the music business...but it is nonetheless A BUSINESS...and its run on the SAME PRINCIPLES as any other business, just because the supporters are fanatical about the product doesn't mean there isn't a board,employees,owners,corporations,marketing..etc

I mean the fact that Arsenal FC is a corporation seems to elude you for some unknown reason...what do you think corporations do?

When teams other than Chelsea,Man City and United start winning the league THEN you can say its a bad business model

you have two billionaire owners who were billionaires before buying Arsenal, yet they need to asset strip the club to make money...give me a f.cking break

its so difficult to have a sensible conversation with someone who thinks that because they been a target of successful marketing and think that they are somehow a part of a something that they get NO benefit from whilst other real people do

Calling it a bad business model with no alternatives is like I said emotional pub talk

Rockstaar. I know you operate from the standspoint that because you run a business, that you are uniquely qualified to talk about business, but the above post contains some very surprising naiveties and contradictions. Firstly, i have a perfectly reasonable grasp of business. My family ran one for 150 years with what i am prepared to bet a larger number of employees than you. I now work for one of the larger companies in Europe. I am well aware of a corportions legal obligation to increase share price, an extremely socially damaging law actually that is the current reason a great many Uk residents can no longer afford to go on trains or pay for central heating. You then make the extremely suprising suggestion that once billionaires become billionaires, they no longer tend to asset strip their acquisitions. If that is the case, can you explain the activities of Philip Green over the past 20 years, and just about every private equity organisation to set foot upon the earth. Moving forward, please explain our negative transfer outlay, in conjunction with our decreasing attendances, and current league position. Incidentally, Arsenals current financial approach is entirely what I would do, if I only had a short term mandate. It makes no financial sense to chase the Man Citys and Chelseas, and if there is a captive element still prepared to fill the ground off the back of the last era, then why not charge high prices too. And if somene bids money for your players, sell them. Your primary focus isnt winning, as current results demonstrate. But all this is damaging the BRAND rockstaar, as well as alienating the fan base. That is why it is yet another example of damaging short termism in British business. Surely as our self appointed business guru you can relate to that?

Quote:

Padre Pio
You have to speculate to accumulate. Arsenal are now in decline due to under investment. Win the Cl its worth millions

First of all, Arsenal isn't in decline, arsenal has been building the financial base upon which the quest to be sustainably successful on the pitch will be launch, and has been doing greatly in that regards.
Secondly, to speculate to accumulate is a business choice that an investor has to make, you don't criticize a man for not squandering his hard earned cash on ventures he deem unfruitful. Arsenal does speculate to accumulate, that was why they had to borrow money to build the stadium. But when the realities of life struck, you will know there are times when you don't spend unneccesarily just for the sake of it. Timing is a big factor in investing as i have learned in doing business at my little level. And, there has to be a buffer against risk taking when investing, especially when you are operating on the edge like Arsenal, and are doing business with people who don't care how much they lose like citeh and chelski.
How do you claim to love the club when all you do is act like mere profiteers and constantly demand of the custodians of the club to spend their last cash without even putting into consideration the current realities of events. Thats not how real fans behave imho.

"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

Arsenal are not in decline? Wake up we are a feeder club to city and Barcelona and have not won a thing in 8 years.
Apart from the "big games" I sit and look at empty seats every game.
Now lets dish the red herrings neither I nor nor Celine are asking the club to spend all its money on players, or pay £30 million a player. We are asking for reasonably priced seats at big games, and to invest enough in the squad to maintain the standard of a big club.
if Arsenal do not want to be a big club (6th richest in the world) then fine, but the prices down.

The income is going up TV deals and sponsorship deals for Arsenal will rocket next season, but it wont be used to cut prices or buy players, it will be used to either increase Kroenke's equity.

You guys are ok with that because you dont get fleeced, ts not costing you. Some of my friends were paying £1800 a year, they dont see the value in it and have walked away. They supported Arsenal when de Times was in Short Pants.
Wake up and smell the coffee

"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.

Rockstaar. I know you operate from the standspoint that because you run a business, that you are uniquely qualified to talk about business,

No Celine, unlike you I don't try to dictate and suppress what one discusses..anyone can talk about business, it just that on this particular forum, most talk from an employee or consumer viewpoint. I'm explaining that not everything they do is some sinister plot

but the above post contains some very surprising naiveties and contradictions. Firstly, i have a perfectly reasonable grasp of business. My family ran one for 150 years with what i am prepared to bet a larger number of employees than you. I now work for one of the larger companies in Europe.

Nice to know your family has been so successful..just how many years did you spend actually running and owning the business before you decided to be an employee? I mean I'm sure you know that just because someone in your family runs a successful business that doesn't suddenly pass down some great understanding in the gene pool to every relative

I am well aware of a corportions legal obligation to increase share price,

Doesn't seem like you are aware that Arsenal and ALL football clubs are corporations..in your book they're something you own because you're a supporter and they should spend whether it makes sense or not. You may not care if a club spends and the owner loses and has to sell, but I bet the owner does

an extremely socially damaging law actually that is the current reason a great many Uk residents can no longer afford to go on trains or pay for central heating.

no idea what you are on about..you invest money to see RETURN...bloody simple mate

You then make the extremely suprising suggestion that once billionaires become billionaires, they no longer tend to asset strip their acquisitions. If that is the case, can you explain the activities of Philip Green over the past 20 years, and just about every private equity organisation to set foot upon the earth.

the idea that two billionaires, one being one of the richest in the world need to do this is folly...I mean disregard the fact that extreme debt and spending is the only way to success in the BPL


Moving forward, please explain our negative transfer outlay, in conjunction with our decreasing attendances, and current league position. Incidentally, Arsenals current financial approach is entirely what I would do, if I only had a short term mandate. It makes no financial sense to chase the Man Citys and Chelseas, and if there is a captive element still prepared to fill the ground off the back of the last era, then why not charge high prices too.

You would run it this way because that's the only way you could without putting in 100's of millions of your own money or going into extreme debt. Its the only logical way to do it until some sort of FFP comes into play

And if somene bids money for your players, sell them. Your primary focus isnt winning, as current results demonstrate.

Your primary focus is surviving, a few years without trophies is the sacrifice to be able to compete with the ridiculous spending currently allowed(I should say league title, because cups are winnable trophies)

and which players did Arsenal just get up and sell for profit...almost everyone of those players wanted to leave for more money or pushed to leave


But all this is damaging the BRAND rockstaar, as well as alienating the fan base. That is why it is yet another example of damaging short termism in British business. Surely as our self appointed business guru you can relate to that?

Agreed it will hurt the brand somewhat, but that is a calculated risk they were willing to take if you want to run a sustainable business, Dein wanted to go the way of Chelsea since it would be way easier, I'm sure everyone understood what was likely to happen and just agreed it was the best and only course



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:02:01:08:58:44 by Rockstaar.

Well, you have more or less agreed with me, whilst, rather predictably, stating a disinterest in the negative social aspects of how large businesses behave. And unfortunately, that is actually what this thread is about.

Arsenal are not in decline? Wake up we are a feeder club to city and Barcelona and have not won a thing in 8 years.
Apart from the "big games" I sit and look at empty seats every game.
Barcelona stayed nearly as much as eight years before they started winning again, didn't make them a feeder club. Arsenal has been selling its best assets to generate funds which has formed the 90% of our profits in the same period, a profit that has been used to fund the payment of loan interests and debts, academy, medical centre and infrastructure developments. As you may have noticed, the clubs you listed are richer than arsenal and has the same playing philosophy as us, and so we have been doing business with them. It doesnt in any way make us their feeder club. Arsenal is building a financial base, and should be able to compete with them in two years, the benefit of doing those business you criticize.
Also, results has been inconsistent lately, and i admit things are frustrating for fans, sometimes including myself. But i havnt missed a single arsenal match this season, i support the team in thick and thin. I understand the very few fans who miss the odd games and get highlighted by people like you as empty seats, but the most important fact is, all the tickets are always sold out.
Now lets dish the red herrings neither I nor nor Celine are asking the club to spend all its money on players, or pay £30 million a player. We are asking for reasonably priced seats at big games, and to invest enough in the squad to maintain the standard of a big club.
Arsenal's expenses, like those of other clubs are very high. When you look at the balance sheet then you discover that things aint as simple as you would want to have us believe. The cash balance at arsenal is tied to alot of things like debt servicing reserves for example. By the time you have a concrete amount to spend, you're talking about around 30m pounds which is about the cost of only one podolski in transfer and wages - and we're talking about a podolski in the last year of his contract. This is where people like you ask the club to speculate to accumulate which is a point i have already addressed.
Arsenal operates under tight financial constraints, i wouldnt want to be in their position if i were doing business.
It's contradictory and unreasonable when you ask for ticket reduction and increased spending at the same time.

If Arsenal do not want to be a big club (6th richest in the world) then fine, but the prices down.
Arsenal is only the 6th richest club in terms of revenue generation, majority of which is from player sale. So it's like a false ranking in my opinion, as the clubs above arsenal keep improving on their team while generating money from sources that arsenal can't due to stadium investment. If you stop the player sales, our ranking will drop to about 12th, and to about 15 if you include clubs with benefactor owners such as psg, anzhi, (chelski and citeh).
The income is going up TV deals and sponsorship deals for Arsenal will rocket next season, but it wont be used to cut prices or buy players, it will be used to either increase Kroenke's equity.
The club has already said we will compete in two seasons, about the same time those funds will come to the club, so what possible evidence do you have that the funds won't be used for football related business at arsenal?
You guys are ok with that because you dont get fleeced, ts not costing you. Some of my friends were paying £1800 a year, they dont see the value in it and have walked away. They supported Arsenal when de Times was in Short Pants.
Wake up and smell the coffee
Every club in the league charge high tickets to make up for the increasing high expenses, why conjure this image of conspiracy about Arsenal? You should target your protest at the people who are pushing the expenses up, and not pressurize your club to make more expenses.
[/quote]

"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:02:01:09:27:17 by De Times.

Celine, I don't know what you read or what happened to your comprehension...even on the one point I agreed that the brand would suffer a little, but for totally different reasons than you

you and padre are in an emotional dream world honestly

We aren't really. Your entire position is founded upon the assumption that business interests underpin and overrule every other human concern. At the risk of entering radio free territory in his numerous debates with you, you, rather regrettably, highlight your position in the following exchange


an extremely socially damaging law actually that is the current reason a great many Uk residents can no longer afford to go on trains or pay for central heating.

no idea what you are on about..you invest money to see RETURN...bloody simple mate

So that's nice, you've made a bit of money, you live in America now, you've got lots of tellies and naked women strolling about the place and whatnot. And you don't give a f*ck about anyone else, basically.

But myself and PP don't like the by-products of global capitalism. And as it happens, the fortresses of global capitalism are not impregnable either, which is why the banks all collapsed a while back. We are entering an era where resources are running dry, the position of the first world economies is being eroded by globalisation and quite frankly you had better enjoy things while you can because one day you might find you try and fill up your show off motor vehicle with petrol and there won't be any f*cking petrol.

Furthermore myself and PP are both intelligent persons, he is a business lecturer in actual fact - we meet frequently to talk about the club - and we can both take an overview of Arsenal FC and deduce the following

a) That the current incumbents may not have the long term interests of the club at heart. This is a slightly more complex consideration than yours, given that your position appears to be along the lines of 'They've paid their money and they can do what they likes to get their return'.

This view would be fine if we were say, talking about a newsagent, but we aren't, we are talking about a globally renowned football club. Modern business has the potential to pass assets from one ownership to the other, and I hardly need to tell you, surely, that sometimes ownership of a business is attained for short term gain rather than long term interest in that business. Surely, surely I don't need to tell you that??? As you well know, there are complexities above and beyond simple investment and return. What we and many many other Arsenal fans are trying to highlight is that their plans for the club may not be in the best interests of the club itself, the ongoing name of Arsenal FC. You know perfectly well that Kroenke could sell his shares in 2 years time, to someone entirely disinterested, a feckless Arab Prince of the kind that bought Malaga, for example, and there would be nothing we could do about it. He could sell to a Glazier, who would leverage his purchase with the associated debt, and then we would be in the position United are in, having to float and re-float on various different stock exchanges, one which you and DT among others are so critical of.

Its no use you just sitting there saying 'a businessman can do what he wants'. This isn't the local cheese factory, its Arsenal FC, and the silly thing is, you actually know this, but you are more interested in reinforcing your stated position on this website, that of the 'businessman', who has 'run his own business', who we are all supposed to bow down to in sheer respect, than confronting some very real concerns about Arsenal FC, which a great many people share, and which you must have some interest in, because otherwise you would not come on here, given that it is an Arsenal FC website. You would just go on a business website.

The second thing, is that fans are being swindled. Again, your affinity with said fans takes second place to you swinging your c*ck around on this website because you 'understand business'. I don't suppose you think the fans are being swindled either. After all, you've got plenty of money, and you've said before that London is a very big City, and ours is the best ground in it, so we should all expect to pay far more money than we can afford to get into our football club. Supply and demand, innit. Supply and demand the universal excuse, for large companies to do precisely what they want, when they want to. Again, you're view is facile. Little more compelling than De Times' in actual fact. Because Arsenal fans DO pay the most to get into the ground, Arsenal HAVE made less outlay on players than Blackburn and Stoke, and Arsenal ARE going backwards. They were universally around the top of the football league even as recently as 3-4 years back and they are now on a rough par with Everton and WBA, drawing the vast majority of their games. Again, you would rather bang on about the rights of the 'businessman' than acknowledge the very real lack of integrity in how the club operates.

Let me try and engage you in terms you might understand. If everything at Arsenal is above board and entirely understandable, if the silver membership increases are completely justified, if the 6% increase was laudable, if the current £80 prices for category A games are inevitable and nobody has a problem with them, then how come the BSM can get 1000+ people to march outside the ground, and how come Arsenal see fit to invest in THE most polished PR team that a modern football club has ever seen fit to employ. If all your intentions are above board, why do you need a world class PR team? Answer me that. Can you name Evertons PR team? Can you name Tottenhams? I bet you cant. If everything Arsenal are doing is completely transparent and in the interests of everyone, why do they need a Gazidis at all?

I expect your answer, and De Times, you can come in here, will be that football fans are all raving idiots. Or in De Times' words, spineless greedy imbeciles or whatever he calls them. But that isn't really the case at Arsenal. Arsenal fans are actually the most economically intelligent fans in football. Again, De Times, you wouldn't know this, as you haven't met any of them, you are too busy supporting your team through 'thick and thin' by watching it on a computer. But actually they are, that's why Chelsea fans have taken to calling us the 'spreadsheet army' and the 'latte crew'. The Arsenal fanbase comprises a great many switched on persons, businessmen, just like you Rockstaar, maybe ones that are even more successful than you, heaven forbid. And a lot of them are giving up their season tickets, and not renewing membership.

the silly thing is, whilst De Times, wont understand any of this, because he about as much cultural attachment to Arsenal FC as I do mushroom farming, you DO understand it Rockstaar. You are perfectly intelligent, we used to have nice chats on here about cooking fish and whatnot, but you seem to feel duty bound to speak for the interests of business, ANY business, without any kind of acknowledgement that the machinations of business are not always honest and beneficial to the populace at large, to people who deserve better, even thought secretly you know it to be the case.

Genuine, long term Arsenal fans are being priced out of the club, their kids will never go to see the games, and for what? Because the landscape of football has changed, and we should all just accept it and f*ck off?

Sorry mate, some of us wont accept it and f*ck off.

Good post Celine, you remind me of an important issue on Supply and Demand.
What business can survive when supply has outstripped demand and yet insists on charging inflated prices?

I know people who pay £90 to the club for a ticket and sell it for £50. I see Club level seats worth 250 selling for £100.

I see travel companies having cut price sales of Arsenal at home hospitality package.

So lets recap I havent got it back to front, fans are selling tickets at less than the price they paid yet the club claim that their prices are justified by demand. More lies and double speak. Even against Liverpool there was a 1000 empty seats. I know eight people who have chucked in season ticket in last 2 years, and know many more considering it.

So all those clever businessmen out there tell me what happens when a businesses demand drops in the real world?

So why is demand dropping?

Firstly many fans cannot afford the tickets in this recession.

Secondly many are tiring of watching rubbish football, we lose to City, Chelsea, Man U and draw with Liverpool on a regular basis.We lose to Hull, WBA and Norwich and we are told we play great football, yeah really? I know de Times is enthralled by that, but fans who have paid £1800 for a season ticket are not enthralled.

Thirdly fans used to share a season ticket, it was quite common now its very hard to find any takers.

Its all adding up to a big pile of dung

"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.

I'm sharing my season ticket.
Only way I can afford to go. Paying £70 a month to a mate.
Missed a fair few games. But managed to catch some good ones too.

High ticket prices are "exploitative" accross the board, they're not exclusive to Arsenal. I can't sit to watch two spurs games in a row, yet they charge almost exactly the same thing as Arsenal.
That said, i don't think club owners just greedily wanted to inflate ticket prices. Expenses went up and then ticket prices followed. For fans who thought the senseless spending of cheslki and citeh wouldnt affect them, they now see it affects them directly.
Why should two players in van persei and rooney earn half a million pounds in one week? My local government is oil producing, and is one of the richest, yet rooney and van persei's wages are close to three times our monthly allocation. Van persei's deal to United is worth about a hundred million pounds (over 30 billion naira, about the annual budget of some state governments in Nigeria).
This isnt an Arsenal issue, but to act like the board and wenger orchestrated all these nothing more than moaning for the sake of it. I refuse to sympathize with fans who complain about high prices and yet are demanding football clubs to increase spending. Arsenal just spent about £16m on a leftback, that is about 5 match day revenue out of 19 in a season, yet alot of fans are still moaning. I use to side with the fans, but i stopped when i discovered that fans are even less sensible than the club owners. It's like in Nigeria where ordinary citizens tend to be even more corrupt than governments. They've proven that they will do worse in the same position.
If spending is reduced and clubs are having surpluses, it becomes easier to drive down ticket prices. But i havnt seen banners and posters from fans in support of financial fairplay. All they do is to ask the club to "spend some fucken money".

"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

Excellent posts Celine.

Rockstarr said he's arrogant and I'm afraid an arrogant man is a fool. You could have all the forces of reason on your side but when you're up against arrogance you'll never win. De Times is much the same.

Quote:

De Times
High ticket prices are "exploitative" accross the board, they're not exclusive to Arsenal. I can't sit to watch two spurs games in a row, yet they charge almost exactly the same thing as Arsenal.
That said, i don't think club owners just greedily wanted to inflate ticket prices. Expenses went up and then ticket prices followed. For fans who thought the senseless spending of cheslki and citeh wouldnt affect them, they now see it affects them directly.
Why should two players in van persei and rooney earn half a million pounds in one week? My local government is oil producing, and is one of the richest, yet rooney and van persei's wages are close to three times our monthly allocation. Van persei's deal to United is worth about a hundred million pounds (over 30 billion naira, about the annual budget of some state governments in Nigeria).
This isnt an Arsenal issue, but to act like the board and wenger orchestrated all these nothing more than moaning for the sake of it. I refuse to sympathize with fans who complain about high prices and yet are demanding football clubs to increase spending. Arsenal just spent about £16m on a leftback, that is about 5 match day revenue out of 19 in a season, yet alot of fans are still moaning. I use to side with the fans, but i stopped when i discovered that fans are even less sensible than the club owners. It's like in Nigeria where ordinary citizens tend to be even more corrupt than governments. They've proven that they will do worse in the same position.
If spending is reduced and clubs are having surpluses, it becomes easier to drive down ticket prices. But i havnt seen banners and posters from fans in support of financial fairplay. All they do is to ask the club to "spend some fucken money".

thats quite an interesting post actually, better than usual. Of course, the people in the picture arent actually Arsenal fans, they are Liverpool fans. But with your comment about RVP and Rooney, you have hit the nail on the head. There isnt actually any reason why these players need so much money other than that capitalism is completely out of control. Most of the movements you see around the place nowadays, these guys, the BSM, and then even much more serious groups, terrorist groups for example, they are all reactions against capitalism in some shape or form. There is a sense in this country, that capitalism is out of control and no longer working for anyone other than about 1% of the population.

Now, it is extremely arrogant of me, as an English person, to whinge about capitalism, to a Nigerian person, whose country is considerably worse off at the hands of the same mechanism, so I apologise for that. And I mean that quite seriously. We are still at a considerable advantage to most of the world. However, there is a genuine sense here of not knowing where it will end. This tends to manifest itself in small, tanglible elements of dissatisfaction, like football prices. Its silly really, we would all be much better off marching down the road complaining about pension funds being ripped to bits by successive governments, or the fact that our tax was used to buy out British banks to save them from liquidation and the failed executives still pay themselves huge bonuses.

But anyway, thats by the by.

Now, onto Arsenal. You are quite right, ALL football tickets are far too expensive. But Arsenal are the WORST proponent, compared to their investment in the team. I dont expect you to agree here, but I will tell you what the wide perception is of Arsenal in the UK, both internally and externally. It is that the current incumbents are exploiting what remains of the brand whilst keeping investment to an absolute minimum, but charging as much as they can get away with. This is illustrated by a very graphic slide down the current football hieararchy, and some very embarassing defeats and collapses over the past few years. There is only one other club in England where this has happened, Aston Villa, owned by, surprise surprise, an American. All other clubs go through periods of investment, for example Liverpool or Tottenham, even if they invest poorly, it stops their fans complaining. We used to view the stadium as an excuse for not investing, but then it became evident that the club was so profitable that this was no longer the factor people thought it had been. Hence the declared cash surplus currently available to the manager.

Thats the view, take it or leave it. Its why Arsenal get singled out. They are seen as the WORST proponent of an unsavoury trend across all footbal clubs.

I thought I would also take this opportunity to apologise De Times as I have been extremely unpleasant to you on this website. You do talk a lot of nonsense, which we will never agree on, but I quite sure you are a nice person in real life, and credit to you, you have a set of beliefs which you stick to. The only reason I get nasty, is when you dismiss fans as complete idiots, greedy whining morons, and so on. There is a sense of real sadness across a lot of Arsenal fans nowadays, because we cant afford to go to football. If you lived here, you would feel it too. So I get annoyed when you write some of the things you do. But theres no excuse for some of the unpleasant things I have written.

Im not apologising to Rockstaar though. He wouldnt want me to anyway.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:02:02:10:28:12 by celine dion.

Fantastic post Mr Celine i cant add to that, you have said it all.

"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.

Celine, fairplay to you, whatever you do, you do it well. When you use to be on my side, we use to be friends but now you've evolved into my favourite moaner on the other side, lol. Apologies for some of my abuse, i'd never for once taken anything personal.
On the issue of Arsenal, i can guarantee to you alot of Nigerian fans are even more frustrated, the only thing they see is the inconsistent results as they don't have the benefit of the information you get. No matter what you pay, trust me, the emotional trauma is the same. Last wednesday, it took my intervention for the Viewing Centre close to my house to make the Arsenal match the main match despite the fact that we were playing Liverpool.
The fanbase is suffering no doubt, but like Rockstaar said, the club owners are aware of this. They've seen the protests and know there is discontent among fans. And it's quite understandable really, why arsenal is the main talking point in the media.
One thing though is, we underestimate the role big corporations play in influencing what comes out of the media. I don't for one second believe clubs like chelski and citeh dont influence the media to sell their way of doing business to the masses. Most of the things people write about arsenal in the media are twisted logic, and the true analysis of events are most times muted. While i think our rivals may have a hand in this, i also think it's mainly cos the writer wants to get a reaction.
But the least i expect from arsenal fans is a fair representation of the fact. Unfortunately, emotions sometimes don't allow this to happen.
My personal opinion is, there's going to be increased investment in the team. I look around and i dont see who the manager is going to sell. And with the new sponsorship deals coming, i think the club will begin to compete again. What the fans can do is promote a serene environment for development, to strike a balance between presurizing the club to invest in the team and reducing the pressure of performance on the players. None of this will be sustainable though, if expenses in the game keep going high. This is another area where the regulations need the support of fans.

"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

I don't even know where to start Celine...honestly I don't

You and Padre are anti-business and yet you work for a large business in a management position no doubt and Padre is a business lecturer...I find it interesting that neither of you decided to do you own thing and run it the 'proper way' the way u see fit

I see you are trying your hardest to put me down for being a business owner, but it would probably have more weight if you were actually running your own business instead of telling everyone what is wrong with business instead of showing them (just food for thought)

there's an article in the daily mail online about the transfer period from the owner of West Ham's perspective, you should read it...tons of things owners have to deal with that fans aren't even aware of

you look at things from a very basic view and refuse to take into consideration anything else which is shocking since I actually think you and padre are two intelligent people

My view is this, they've paid their money and should get a return on it just like any other individual on earth wants to do when they invest, but the way they have to do things has been dictated to them by Roman..its so simple and clear I don't know what the issue is

I posted the effect of Roman in another thread a while ago...how it causes other clubs to max their spending on lesser players etc

City fans had a heart attack about the tickets prices to the away match at Arsenal but have no problem with or the EFFECT of the BILLION pounds dumped into their club...that is the issue..you spend, but I don't want too

you keep on saying Arsenal are going downhill and backwards, but offer no reason for this or solution other than lower the ticket prices and buy better players

When you say Arsenal are being asset-striped and sell their best players...you don't say that the players wanted to leave for bigger paydays or whatever..you make it seem like they are just selling for selling sake

Arsenal have to build a stadium to get more revenue, charge what they think is sustainable by the fanbase and negotiate new commercial deals, whilst trying to build loyal players until they can get enough money to compete with the big 3

A Hazard costs £90mil over the course of his deal, so its not as simple as bring in some players, there's £70mil in the bank...players have to be sold, but can't because only a few clubs can afford the wages their on and a million other factors

you should look at both sides is my point

If for some reason you think I'm only about business with no concern for anyone, then you are crazy..I'm of the viewpoint that there is no business without customers..and I think most business owners feel that way...so thats why I doubt Arsenal think its good business to isolate the fans..its a calculated risk that they had to take and will fix


[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

I have read every post on this thread due to the passion with which they were written I have enjoyed doing so, everyone has a point of some validity in a very polarised argument but the bottom line here seems to be ethos.

In business the market dictates to businesses but monopolies dictate the market and that is Capitalism or so it would seem.
Arsenal are not responding to a problem by raising the ticket prices, the entire stadium was built with commercial interests and corporatism in mind, the board members know that people with more money can spend more money and so the club was sold to that market.
Of course people can afford those prices, it's only that I can't or Celine or Padre or the vast majority of the members of this forum can't but then we were never the intended market.

What we are supposed to do is pay SKY so that we can watch 40 games for 80 quid a month whilst sipping tea from an official Arsenal mug wearing our official Arsenal replica shirts and support the club financially in the only way we have remaining, we support the club by consuming the brand.

The brand itself has policies which are in place to sustain it's profitability as a corporate entity and it is obliged to do this by law and so when we support the brand we support the system itself which is why boycotts have such symbolic power.
When you boycott you are in effect saying "fu(k the system" and I think this is what many people on this thread are feeling, a sense that there is something wrong beyond the Arsenal example and that in fact the club is a microcosm of a much larger issue and the failure to address the wider issue see's us fighting a futile battle to cure a symptom rather than the disease.
The more that this happens in the minds of the people the more aware we become of the gravitas of the task at hand, you are not in a battle to save your club you are in a battle to save yourself and your children from a system which see's you only as a consumer whilst disregarding your producer status.

In reality people do not consume something provided like a service, we produce everything but when you agree to become incorporated to a company your energy and ideas become the energy and ideas of that entity which then sells you the idea that therefore everything of value comes by way of energy from the corporations as producers and is consumed by who ? the "employees" which are called consumers but if you are an extension of a corporation then surely the corporations are the consumers, no ?

When you leave work at 6 you are free but in all of the time you are at work you have no freedom, you are an extension of the legal fiction or corporation which is working within a wider plutocracy for the benefit of shareholders, make no mistake.
The gap between the rich and the poor used to be the benchmark for arguments for redistribution of wealth but for me the gap between the rich and middle class is as stark as the former was 30 years ago which is just as disturbing because it puts the true issues of poverty into a more stark perspective when you then consider the poor today.

99% of the worlds wealth in the hands of 1% of the population
means that 99% of the worlds population is fighting over the remaining 1% of the wealth, let that sink in for a minute, look around you and think of all the hospitals and police stations and fire services which were built by way of a share of that 1% and consider how the world would be if 1% of the population only held 50% of the wealth, it would still be criminal but consider it ?

Hospitals are now closing and the NHS cutting the jobs of 6,000 nurses and it has been done not because of austerity measures but because they want to allow the NHS to get so bad that everyone agrees to a policy of privatising the NHS, this is who your government are representing, private interests who lobby and pay the MP's enough (Stephen Byers:Taxi for hire) to have legislation enacted which benefits their corporate entities.

The Liverpool "Care" Pathway killing people off like sick dogs without any consent whilst the law holds that euthanasia is a crime and so people are starting to ask questions, inconsistencies are starting to be highlighted because the middle class are now having the rug pulled out from underneath their feet and the revolution was only ever going to come from them because for most poor people getting fu(ked by the state is a way of life.

Maybe now that the middle classes find themselves feeling they may have to send their child to failing school, or that their local A&E is closed after 9pm, or that their are no jobs in the areas they are qualified and so may have to face close to minimum wage employment things may change, but they will only change if you do something which you yourself consider to be valuable to that end as legal maxims state: a man who does not state has claim has no claim.

The corporate system has become anarchic, it is way out of control and has been for some time but the people are waking up to it Rockstaar and we want it back, all of it.
I was taught in school that no one knows what happened during the Dark Ages, the people realised that they had become enslaved and in rage destroyed anything, sign or symbol which represented the system which had enslaved them.
Luckily for us our Dark Age and our Renaissance have come to us together in the form of a choice, we can open up the patent offices around the world and build Wardenclyffe Towers providing the entire planet with free energy and live in peace in a world where 1% of the population holds 1% of the wealth or we can destroy the blueprints in rage and burn in the ashes......I know what age I want to be a part of.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:02:02:15:06:18 by Billythekid.

Like it or not billy, your fight with Arsenal is mis-placed..the climate was dictated by Abramovich and now everyone is feeling the effects, yet they are at war with their clubs

Abramovich simply priced out his competition (similar to what city did to him) he drove up the cost of EVERYTHING by doing some very simple and basic things...just him driving up the salaries was enough to cause everything

but people don't argue about that or fight that because he's won trophies, instead they fight their club and owners because they don't do the same

like Padre and Celine you don't offer any alternatives for success...nothing different to what Arsenal could do...all I know is they do better than any other team with similar business models in England


[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

Agreed Rocky.

Well said.

Right, Rockstaar. I'm not putting you down for being a business owner. You've done bl**dy well, clearly. Fair play to you for taking the risks. At one time, I might have taken similar risks, but I have a couple of kids, its far more sensible in the UK to be an employee at this point in time. I have a very decent relationship with my seniors, and although I moan about not being able to afford going to football, I COULD afford it, its more that it wouldn't be appropriate at this point in time, because I need to buy a bigger house. And if there is one thing that F*CKS your finances in the UK at this point in time, its buying a house. I'll be back at football, not on a 20 game a season basis, admittedly, but I'll be back, once these personal things are straightened out.

Having said that, football has a social purpose, and that is being eroded now, it is becoming a game for the rich, at least, top level football is. That's not a good thing. As Billy says, this was a conscious decision about 15 years back, by a lot of football directors, Nick Hornby devoted a whole chapter to it in Fever Pitch, football will lose the working class, and it had better be very sure of keeping its new fanbase, come what may, or it will be in trouble.

You interpret our positions as anti business, and that is where your comprehension of the overall topic surprises me. There are lots of different levels of business. I am not anti business, but I am anti SUPER CAPITALISM. This is a term, broadly understood, to mean the ascent of capitalist concerns so that they trancede the power of government and become socially damaging. The company I work for doesn't really fall into this bracket, so I don't have a problem working for them. Its not just the issue of someone putting their money in, so expecting something out again. My focus is on the potential for parties completely unassociated with football, coming in, making their money, and leaving their purchase in far worse state than when they bought it. Hicks and Gilette for example.

There are many, many examples of business performing like this, I hardly need to point them out. Governments are in thrall to speculation, and the illusion of growth, they are completely dependent on the capitalist model. They cannot break free from it. This has led to some fairly startling representations of business working against social values. Americas failure to sign the Kyoto treaty comes to mind. the second Iraq war might be another. The last UK government having to buy out the banks but being unable to impose a new set of ethics upon those banks, that would be another one. These examples are a world away from what I imagine to be your situation (unless you are going to surprise me and say you are the CEO of a global corporation), where you have simply created some businesses, employed people, managed your customer base, and made a decent, perhaps very decent living for you and your family. I am not against that. You have done well, I am sure.

Now, my view of Kroenke and his ilk, is that they belong in the bracket of the super-rich, and therefore their power is such that they can do social damage. Their decisions are not simply taken from the point of view of earning a decent living for themselves, they belong to the small bracket of persons whose obsessive need to create exponential wealth for themselves, creates a social ill. My main distrust of Kroenke stems from his involvement with Wal-Mart. Businesses like Wal-Mart (whilst I have a certain admiration for their logistical model) supress quality of life, particularly in their supply chain. British supermarkets have followed that model, beneath a veneer of saccharine advertising. It is not unknown for a British supermarket supplier to advertise its own charitable donations, having previously insisted that their supply chain, makes that donation. As you will know, they will unashamedly demand lower costs from their supply chain, with no notice whatsoever. This has led to suicides as, those suppliers were faced with liquidation. this is a complete reversal of the customer/client model that business relies on, and is a clear illustration of how monopoly and supercapitalism has tranceded the simple mechanics of supply and demand.

Now, I don't suppose you are comfortable with that, any more than I am.

What has any of that got to do with Arsenal? Well, I don't believe, personally, that Kroenke has the best interests of the club at heart, or he wouldn't need such a strong PR engine. It all smacks of supercapitalism, I am afraid, i.e. manipulating a very large concern for ones own profits, in the manner of a private equity purchase. American private equity businesses have been coming into the UK for the last 20 years, buying out the shareholders, supressing wages, slashing pension contributions, selling off stock and particularly property, reducing businesses to a mere shell of what they were, and selling back to the stock market at increased value. there are examples of these businesses using their experience to steer their purchases through difficult times, but there are, I think it is fair to say, more examples, of said companies leaving their purchases in a terrible mess, using management consultants to pick the bones from the corpse of their prey, leaving a traumatised workforce and an ineffective business.

You ask what Arsenal could do differently, and this is where it gets interesting for me. Because actually, I agree with you and De Times, that at present, they aren't doing anything I wouldn't do. If they were running a fruit and veg shop, or a railway system, they are doing exactly what they should do. keeping the wage bill as low as they can, exploiting the high numbers that are still prepared to come into the ground, and chasing Champions league rather than anything beyond that. If you look at Arsenal in the here and now, then its hard to disagree with their business model. But its easy not to APPROVE of it. Because as Billy points out, successive super rich persons, have manipulated Arsenal from something it was, to something completely different. They also made a pretty huge error. Three years ago, when Chelsea were suffering from the meglomaniacal vanity of their chairman, who had started on his spree of sacking managers, and Man City were not really the strength they have now become, Arsenal still had some very decent players in their line up, and were top of the league at xmas. We only needed some defenders, and a proper goalkeeper, of even average quality, and the Wenger era could have been closed very nicely, and in the manner it deserves. The horse has bolted now, but it hadn't bolted then. It is the penny pinching, the absurd meanness of our transfer dealings around that time, that set the trend for the way the club behaves now, and brought about the exodus of our current players. You can blame it on Wenger, and his idealism, if you want, but as owners, they should have known enough about football to either change his behaviour, or get rid of him. Because now we have started to stagnate. I don't accept that ALL our players wanted to leave. RVP, Fabregas, Nasri did. But what about the Songs, the Clichys. These just went to make money, because the owners believe in delivering a profit each season, even if it means selling the playing staff. This is at odds with the way other clubs behave. A forward thinking board would have invested 2 or 3 years ago, if only to capitalise on the momentary weaknesses of the super rich clubs that you give as our reason for not competing. This is a board that operates without any understanding of football. This is damaging. It is damaging to the club and its fan base.

You ask me what they should do now? Well, the 6% price rise, against the back drop of the players that left at the end of the last few seasons, together with the silver membership increases, were a disgrace. If the club cant compete, which it openly admits it cant, then it needs to remodel its pricing range to that of Everton or Spurs. I don't accept that this would destroy their potential to compete with THOSE clubs. The club is delivering such huge profits that it has almost eaten up the stadium debt and is amassing cash on top of that. There simply isn't any justification for charging 80 pounds a seat unless you are trying to amass a short term surplus because you are either going to pay yourselves large dividends or sell the club. And this goes back to the point I have made all the way through the thread. This is treating the club as a commodity, leaving it in a worse state to that which it was purchased, and therefore this is not ethical behaviour.

Incidentally, I don't believe in the clubs apparent faith in fair play, either. these are money men, they know how the world operates, money speaks for money, the devil for his own, as the song says. There are so many loopholes in the idea of fair play, and the evidence that is only a token effort is so overwhelming, that Gazidis is embarrassing himself in stating that we are somehow waiting for it to weave its magic, and restore order. He doesn't believe it, any more than we do.

And that is my overall point. You have done well as a businessman, I am sure, I don't mean to belittle your achievements. But if I could make one criticism, you don't seem to differentiate between straightforward business behauviour, purchase and return, supply and demand, and the principles of EXTREME capitalism, which are quite a different kettle of fish altogether. I think Arsenal are in the hands of a set of persons who see things completely differently to what we imagine them to, and I fear for the consequences.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:02:02:21:53:51 by celine dion.

celine clichy actually had to be persuaded to stay for a final year, he wanted out one year earlier, kolo put in three transfer requests, ade clearly wanted out, and its said Song spent much of last season telling other players he was too good for AFC and could join any of Barca, Real or city,

People need to look at why rvp was sold and theo kept, rvp broke the terms of his contract with his statement, (its said to have cost him his loyalty payment and cut of the transfer fee), the statement amounted to a transfer request, he made it clear he wanted out, while Theo always said his aim was to reach an agreement on signing a new contract, Wenger has pointed this out several times early this season, Wenger has made it clear in the last two summers that he feels let down by the players that wanted out, not by the club selling them, he knows once a player of the stature of those that left want out, they get out, and best thing to do is sell them for as much as you can get.
as for who they were sold to, Wenger early in his Arsenal reign said he could not understand this English opposition to selling to certain other english clubs, he claims you should buy and sell to anyone, and that its not fair on the players if you do not, in fact he said it was downright wrong to stop a player going to certain clubs, if a club agrees to sell a player and the fee matched then up to player to pick, not the club. Its something I totally agree with.

I have said on many threads with topics such as this, the one thing that I find amazing is the number of fans who on the one hand complain about being priced out of going to games, but at the same time implore the club to pay even more obscene wages to players, £26K a year is the average working wage in the UK, yet lots of fans who are likely to be in and around that wage themselves, don't see anything wrong with paying a footballer £150K - £250K a week, think about it, thats about six to ten years of wages a week, or 300 to 500 years worth of wages a year,
Next time you hear a fan say "he should be paid whatever it takes" or a fan say "I can no longer afford to buy a match ticket", just remember two things, they are both linked and secondly 300-500 years worth of wages per year for a poxy footballer

*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

would like to add, don't get me wrong, AFC's wages are badly designed and need sorting, but not massively, we also employ far too many players, there needs to be a better efficiency of spend, and much more of the cash reserves needs to be used to bring in better players.

*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

ok, good to have you on board the debate, because I actually think this thread has the potential to be one of the best debates of this kind this site has had in a long while.

Ref Song, Clichy etc, very obviously, if the club had only spotted its opportunity when we were top at xmas 3 years ago, and spent some money to sustain the challenge (even if this money were borrowed), them this might have stopped the trend of players 'outgrowing' Arsenal, because we would have had a better standing in football as a direct result.

Now, on your last comment. Actually, the nascent movement 'Against modern football' in the picture, and the position of people like myself and PP, is that we are against the entire ETHOS of footballers being paid more money per year than it takes to build a school. But what we also disapprove of, is Arsenal joining in the entire money spinning exercise in terms of charging for seats, but disengaging itself from the process of buying big name players. It needs to strike an acceptable balance. it wont do to bridge the gap with spin and b*llshit, which is what it does now.

yes celine the club need to find a better middle ground, for me thats all part of efficieny of spend, better wage spread, more transfer funds spent, etc

as for not buying players 3 years ago in the jan window, we all know its not something wenger has ever liked doing, I don't think Wenger has ever went out and bought in January cos he seen it as the final piece to win a cup or title, he don't think that short term, if you look at the players we have bought in jan in his time here really only Arshavin fits the adding to team thing (many still say Wenger did not want to sign him), most of the rest were bought due to interest from other clubs, I don't know if anyone else was in for Adebayor, Reyes was a massive part of the invincibles season, but we only moved for him cos we were so afraid Real or Barca would snap him up if we waited till the summer, Diaby and Walcott had to be bought in Jan cos Chelsea among others had bids accepted for them, Nacho was a reaction to Gibbs injury, but it has now come out it was a deal set for next summer, he has already been learning English as he knew deal was coming in summer, Wenger has his ways and he sticks to them as much as he can,

*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

if Arsenal's season does not improve then there will be much uproar when our next financial figures are released later in the season, some reports suggest that they will show a large increase in banked money

*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

ok Celine fairplay to you for the entire bit before you got back to Arsenal as usual I don't take any offense and like you said I'm just as uncomfortable as you with certain business practises..for instance I don't even support Walmart because of doing actual business with them and know their terrible business practises and the damages it does to local small business

That said back to Arsenal

Arsenal are expanding their brand so they need a top PR firm like any other big brand that is trying to expand or maximize the potential of their product...I don't see nothing wrong with that..its what I would do

Quote:

If you look at Arsenal in the here and now, then its hard to disagree with their business model. But its easy not to APPROVE of it. Because as Billy points out, successive super rich persons, have manipulated Arsenal from something it was, to something completely different.

Again you are totally wrong...football as a whole has changed not just Arsenal FC..once the Premier League was created..football would never be the same..more money and worldwide television changed it..then Abramovich came along and changed it again with the super inflated transfer fees and salaries

You said that the time when Arsenal were on top of the league they could ave invested more, but we don't know the financial situation then (I thought Wenger just wasn't good enough to motivate the team honestly)

west ham owner explains jan transfer window

I do differentiate between business and super capitalism, I just don't agree that Arsenal are being asset-striped...they are running the club the best way they can without going the way of the top 3

I asked in a different thread to name the players that would give Arsenal the title and the cost of that investment with Arsenal's current business model...the reason was to spark thought and maybe take a look at the other side of the coin (of course the top 3 will buy better players because they can)

I believe the people in charge at Arsenal want to do it the right way and that takes time since there isn't any cash infusion from the billionaires...cause realistically even if they put in that type of money you will have essentially 4 clubs pouring tons of cash into the league for 1 spot...someone is going to be wasting alot of cash

just got to wait and see I guess


[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

How can you say arsenal are not asset stripped? The club has been selling its superstars for last 8 years until they sold the last one RvP. they were not replaced with similar quality

"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.

Padre,

Are you saying that Arsenal have been selling since Abramovich came in and changed the wage structure?

Or was that during the stadium build?

Could you get similar quality for similar money originally spend for those players that left?

out of the players that left, which ones actually didn't want to leave?

is that the same time Dein was trying to bring in an Abramovich type billionaire?

did Arsenal suddenly adopt the current model they have or was it simply an extension of what was already in place?

the reason you don't think the club was being asset-striped before is because Arsenal didn't have to sell pre-roman, there wasn't too many alternatives other than abroad or United and that wasn't an option, and players wanted to play for Arsenal

once players saw what players like SWP were going to Chelsea for, it was over...loyalty went out the window and that was what Wenger was banking on..yet you call it asset-strip

I've asked you for an alternative way YOU think Arsenal can conduct themselves...what would YOU do different


[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

Quote:

Rockstaar
Like it or not billy, your fight with Arsenal is mis-placed..the climate was dictated by Abramovich and now everyone is feeling the effects, yet they are at war with their clubs
Abramovich simply priced out his competition (similar to what city did to him) he drove up the cost of EVERYTHING by doing some very simple and basic things...just him driving up the salaries was enough to cause everything

but people don't argue about that or fight that because he's won trophies, instead they fight their club and owners because they don't do the same

like Padre and Celine you don't offer any alternatives for success...nothing different to what Arsenal could do...all I know is they do better than any other team with similar business models in England

But there is no similar business model Rocky, Arsenal are a one off. The club rakes in cash which teams like Everton, Newcastle and Spurs can only dream of, play in a stadium which they can only dream of and yet spend like we are about to be relegated.
We were told that in order to compete with the big boys we would have to make this move and were asked to be patient and we have been, but 8 years on and we are not competing for anything but 4th spot.

This reflects the austerity measures of the current coalition/government/tyrannical regime so as to be a microcosm for it.
The bunch we have no name for (above) close hospitals, are sacking thousands of nurses, closing police stations and cutting police services, fire stations and firefighters and sell off the assets of the nation to the highest bidders as though it were a fire sale.
They operate with impunity and the decisions they make will have long term consequences which may prove irreparable as far as the Capitalist system is concerned, Arsenal treat the fans in the same way. It is the idea that if we are patient and consistently give back more than we actually have to give that at some unknown point in the future we may just get something back.

This is why our mothers always told us that promises are empty, a promise to pay is not payment it's just a promise like the IOU's/cash in the system or in your pocket.
As I said before In business the market dictates to businesses but monopolies dictate the market and that is Capitalism, this translates into a plutocracy, that is the order of politics today, that is the order of business which buys favour politically and that is what Arsenal have become, a plutocracy.

Quote:

But there is no similar business model Rocky, Arsenal are a one off. The club rakes in cash which teams like Everton, Newcastle and Spurs can only dream of, play in a stadium which they can only dream of and yet spend like we are about to be relegated.
We were told that in order to compete with the big boys we would have to make this move and were asked to be patient and we have been, but 8 years on and we are not competing for anything but 4th spot.

What?? Almost every other team other than the top 3 is trying to be like Arsenal and use club generated funds to progress in their respective leagues...Arsenal spend money or they wouldn't have one of the HIGHEST wage bills in the nation

What I don't understand is how you,celine, padre and co. can offer so much information about what Arsenal is doing wrong, I mean all sorts of figures,numbers,history, speculation, discussions etc. but not one paragraph about what you would do different when you have 3 clubs that will and can outspend you no matter how much you spend

nothing about the impact of the inflated wages on the entire league

nothing about how much the players that left originally cost before said player decided they wanted to leave

nothing about how much say a RVP would cost to replace and who would that be...nothing

I asked numerous times but I'll take into consideration you didn't see it...

What players would you buy and for how much that would in your opinion give Arsenal the title?

What would you do different as far as running the club knowing you can't compete with wages and finances with the 3 clubs above you?


[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

.....wait for better sponsorship deals to kick in?
















.......hold up. That sounds familiar!

Yes Rockstaar in the same way that you don't mention that Arsenal are one of the richest sporting franchises on the planet, that it rakes in 3m Pounds every home game, that we just secured a sponsorship deal worth 150m over five years which translates into an extra 30m Pounds per season and that spend on average 50% of our turnover on wages which is paltry compared to other clubs whose turnover is significantly less.

Quote:

The Independent
Spurs normally turn over around £120m. Arsenal's income since moving to the Emirates has averaged around £225m.
What is remarkable about Spurs is the cash Levy has made available to successive managers despite having the smallest stadium of the world's top 20 clubs (as ranked by Forbes). Since he became chairman in February 2001, his managers have spent a net £220m (£190m more than Wenger) despite Levy's preference for buying players with a view to their sell-on potential rather than those at the peak of their powers. Tottenham have also built a new training ground at a net cost, once the old one is sold, of approximately £30m. This should further enhance a youth development programme that, after years of failure, is now producing first-team players with graduates Jake Livermore and Steven Caulker capped by England this season. In addition, the club have found an estimated £80m-90m to purchase land and cover other expenses in preparation for the new stadium Tottenham need to compete with the best in the long-term.

here

Villa, Stoke, Blackburn have all spent more on players than Arsenal have over the last decade, they all have much smaller turnovers and all spend more on wages in relation to their turnover.

Quote:

What?? Almost every other team other than the top 3 is trying to be like Arsenal

Which one of those clubs has qualified for the CL 15 years running, can boast a turnover on average of 225m or have a 60,000 seated state of the art stadium ?

Quote:

The Independent
Since he became chairman in February 2001, his managers have spent a net £220m (£190m more than Wenger)

Tottenhams net turnover is 120m on average, Arsenals is 225m and yet since 2001 they have spent 190m more on players than we have and that equates to 15.8m more spent on players in the average season since 2001.
Arsenal have been stockpiling cash and it is not benefiting the football, so what or whom is it benefiting ?

None of us are saying that we should be winning the league year in year out, what we are saying is that with the revenue the club makes we should be coming close to the top and not scraping CL qualification whilst fighting with clubs who turnover far less than we do but try immeasurably harder than we do.

I haven't said Arsenal are skint billy but for all the perceived riches, can they compete with the top 3 in their league financially? yes or no

so where do you reasonably expect them to finish?

ave Villa, Stoke and co built a new stadium? just because Arsenal are doing a good job managing their money doesn't make them wrong

I said the other clubs are TRYING to be like Arsenal...the fact that Arsenal have qualified for the CL 15 years straight without the sugar daddy is exactly what clubs want to replicate

and stop throwing out 225m figures without expenditure...do you even have any idea of the bonuses players are promised or any terms of any contracts?

I'm sure you are aware that Arsenal's wage bill is higher than Tottenhams right? you are also aware that even if Arsenal spend more that they can't outspend the 3 clubs above them...so they have to try to figure out how to compete and when there is enough money to try

AGAIN PLEASEEEEEEEEEEE, name the players and cost that would satisfy you and also what would YOU do different

its all hypothetical so I don't see what the issue is answering


[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

have these clubs actually spent more on transfers or just spent more on transfers than they got in from transfers, there is a big difference, AFC has actually spent £200M in 18 months on in coming transfers, stoke blackburn and villa probably have not spent that between them, and of course lets ignore the £140M spent on wages a year by AFC, it don't count it seems wages is not money spent

*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

The club isnt stockpilling money Billy, the AST just said Arsenal has about 50m to 70m to spend on players, same as what every other analyst says. 18m of that 50m or 70m has been spent already on Monreel. What would you do differently as manager or board to make us win trophies with 30m or 50m currently available?

"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

Quote:

have these clubs actually spent more on transfers or just spent more on transfers than they got in from transfers, there is a big difference

You should probably think about that a bit.

Exactly what they did in this window mate, so why the constant moaning?

Shut up you mosquito !

You're losing it Billy...

You would know.

Quote:

eduardo
if Arsenal's season does not improve then there will be much uproar when our next financial figures are released later in the season, some reports suggest that they will show a large increase in banked money

I thought FY2011/12 they should be in deficit due to player bill (60% of turnover), 50-mil for those 5 players - Gervinho, Arteta, Mertesacker, Santos, Park CY and Benayoun loan.

Plus no more contributions from property development.

If I read correctly, 2011/12 was the first time that Wenger broached that 50% of turnovers spent on player bill.