Arsenal
Civil War Can Kroenke Stop It? FANS MUST UNITE P2
Brothers in arms?
By Celine Dion
April 10 2011
The second part of this article goes to press at a time when the implications of Stan Kroenke's possible buyout of Arsenal raises the issue can he stop the current civil war between Gooners over the clubs present board, management and policies. Celine Dion believes that the causes of the civil war are far deeper than some fans realise.Even if Kroenke takes over it is possible he will continue the present policy. Second part below:
Nail Colours To Mast
It’s time to nail my colours to the mast. I am anti-board, and to an extent anti-Wenger. I like Wenger but I don’t think he’s the footballing god a lot of people do. I could have egg on my face if we somehow win the league this season, but even so some of the performances this season have not been acceptable. Wenger nowadays makes mistakes, and it’s not even all to do with money. We’ve spent most of the season experimenting with our goalkeepers. Squillaci was a mistake, and a hurried one at that. Not getting someone in at Christmas to replace him, that’s a mistake. There are better forwards around than Marouane Chamakh.
Having season after season wrecked by Robin Van Persies constant injuries, and being surprised about them, these are all mistakes. When West Brom scored after 2 minutes and with their player leaping 3 feet unchallenged above our static defence, that’s a mistake. Against this backdrop, I resent the clubs constant rampage of self-publicity, the soulless corporate ethos that dominates the ground, and overall the complacency and spin from the management. I can almost predict the response from the pro-camp at this point. ‘If you don’t like it stop going’.
But life does not work like that. We are surrounded by PLCs, we buy our food and our energy from them. Voting with your feet does not affect the PLC, and Arsenal know it. While the waiting lists remain long, the only person you are hurting is yourself. And I happen to rather like football and Arsenal FC as a whole. What the club does not want, is DISSENT. There’s nothing likely to spoil the aesthetics of an afternoon in the diamond club than a dirty rabble downstairs singing foul mouthed songs about the management. So how do you deal with that? Well, that preferred weapon of the PLC, or any half decent corporate management team, smoke and mirrors.
Let’s sidestep the issue of direct competition with the games’ big hitters altogether. The news from Wengers’ press conference, that we no longer go for ‘big name players’ surprised me somewhat. Henry was a big name and cost a fair bit of money, and so did Dennis Bergkamp, I think you would agree both were rather good. Marouane Chamakh doesn’t get me so excited. But he’s quite a good player who might do something next year, (and he was free!) so, as far as the board are concerned, that will do for now – he’s just good enough to keep people coming through the turnstiles, he’ll score the odd goal in the Champions league and that’s all the club need.
At the moment, there’s still a mystique about the club, we’re in the same competitions as our competitors but it’s with a kind of semi-commitment and distaste. Arsenal at the moment are being marketed by some very clever people in the background as a kind monument to anti-capitalism, a kind of footballing Citizen-Smith. But these same people are sitting back in 10 million pound mansions and lighting their cigars with £50 notes.
I think it was very very telling that after several years of Wenger telling us
exactly WHY he didn’t put a full team out in the Carling Cup, he suddenly
decided to take it seriously. It was so that the club could say ‘We’ve won a
trophy, what more do you want’. I used to make fun of Spurs fans, for muddying
the waters of what they had actually won by referring to the Carling cup as ‘a
trophy’ – but that’s exactly what our club decided to do.
I put it to you, that the reason we won’t compete directly, by throwing some
bigger names into the mix, just the same as your Aston Villas, your Newcastles,
your Liverpools do (never mind your Chelseas and Manchester Citys) is because
once you compete on level terms, if it doesn’t come off, then you’ve got
nowhere to go. Wengers’ veneer of footballing genius starts to peel off. The
super duper platinum club level diamond scheme starts to look a bit silly. I’m
not saying that if Wenger spent more money he wouldn’t bring in a trophy. In
fact I think he would.
But I’m saying the clubs approach is ‘its safer not to know’. And this makes them very very cynical indeed. The entire purpose of sporting competition, is to win. It’s what we go to football matches for. By all means scale back, by all means set the seat prices of those of Aston Villa or Everton, nobody could possibly complain, it’s where we have come from after all. Nobody asked for the club to market itself on the same terms as Real Madrid or Barcelona. But currently our product is just as hollow as those buy one get one free offers in Tescos’. It shows just as much respect for the paying fan. It’s a big corporate rip off like so many other things in life.
So what of the pro-camp?
Why are they so proud of our PLC? Are they the same people who waltz into the supermarket every week and praise the Chairman for his generous two for one offers, oblivious to the fact that he doubled the prices the week before. When energy companies up their prices at the first snowfall of the winter, do they believe that it’s only right and proper – they wouldn’t want the shareholders to go hungry after Christmas.
There is a fanaticism amongst the pro-camp that I cannot relate to. There is a stonewalling, and the suggestion that people complaining about the club are ‘not supporters’. This is an oversimplistic view and somewhat ignorant of the last 50 years of fan culture within the game, where fans have always had dialogue with the club, and being predominantly working class that dialogue tended to be of a vociferous nature. I am a supporter of Arsenal, loosely this means the team when it’s on the pitch. Being a fan of something is a slightly abstract concept, when one considers it. It is determined by heritage, upbringing, or whatever. I don’t remember signing anything which said I had to support the manager, the marketing department, the chairman, Arsenal.com and so on. You can support whichever elements of the club you like.
There are stock catchphrases amongst the pro-lobby which are spat out at every
sign of dissent in the ranks. One of them is the mantra ‘financial
responsibility’. As if haggling over 39 year old Mark Schwarzer is somehow the
only way to keep the club from financial oblivion. I wonder if these people
spent sleepless nights when we bought Reyes, or Wiltord.
How many clubs Arsenal’s size have ever gone bust? We’re Arsenal, with a world support of running into millions. Thats several hundred investors, rescuers, and financial heavyweights. We are not Maidstone United. In the same way large companies use the recession as the reason not to give their employees pay rises, whilst posting the same operating profits as they were five years ago, the by-word ‘financial responsibility’ is bandied about by the board as if sticking twenty million pound down for Gary Cahill could see the Emirates a desolate boarded up wasteland a year from now.
Another standard response to anyone complaining about lack of purchases is to
pick examples of particularly bad purchases by other clubs. Fernando Torres
presently would be a good example. But this is an obtuse argument. There are
plenty, plenty, of clubs who have improved themselves by buying players. The
biggest and best example of this currently are Spurs. Another was Chelsea. You
need a good manager as well. But we’ve got one. If we were a lost cause, then I
wouldn’t care. But we are SO CLOSE, that is why people find this parsimony so
frustrating.
There is also a strong school of thought that things represent the best of all
possible worlds. That they cannot be improved. This is as good as it gets. And
to an extent, if we were one or two years into the post-Emirates era I would
agree. But we aren’t, we are now several years in, and there have been strong
protestations from the club about there being money to spend. I do not see how
a barren run of so many seasons cannot and should not be criticised. What is
there to lose? Surely if the club listened it would improve things for
everyone?
Don’t have to hate
Interestingly, one might expect the pro-camp to be older, more level headed supporters, but in my experience they comprise largely younger supporters. Younger people seem to prefer a distinct polarity of opinion. We’ve all heard the expression ‘hater’, and it gets bandied around a lot on wesbites and so on. Well, I find that you can have a debate, even criticise, without necessarily ‘hating’ anything at all. They should try it. Perhaps they don’t remember that you used to be able to get into football for eight pounds, and that even in relatively successful times you could stand and criticise players or management (‘Georgie, sort it out’ used to ring round the North Bank for even quite minor reasons.) Perhaps they don’t remember, or don’t know, that the money men have come in and taken all that away. The very money men that they now claim such allegiance to.
People need to be more discerning of the different elements in the club. The
fact that Wenger has become a mouthpiece for club economic policy is not a good
thing, for him, or the club. Let’s be more questioning about the elements
behind him. Major shareholders who are never at the ground, or even in the
country. A full and frank debate needs to be had. Answers need to be given
about expenditure and ambition. This will not be achieved when dissenters at
the ground are threatened, and the Chairman dismisses such people as ‘silly’. I
don’t care if dissent hurts Wenger’s feelings. I’ve spent enough money having
my feelings hurt watching the likes of Younes Kaboul and Jerome Thomas hammer
home winning goals this season. Stop @#$%& footing around Wenger like he’s
made of glass. He’s a big boy in charge of an extremely large football club,
and he’s paid plenty of money. In becoming the manager of a very large football
club, you are putting yourself there to be shot at. The club protects his
image, because it suits them. He DIDNT invent Arsenal, although he has been an
excellent servant, one of the best, and he may continue to be.
Nonetheless, that is all he is, a servant, a cog in a very large and quite possibly very dirty machine. This blind fanaticism, this brainwashed subservience, this is playing into the hands of the machine, a machine that very few can claim to truly understand in the first place. This machine does not care which camp you are in, as long as you keep buying tickets. So people need to abandon their battle lines, engage each other in debate and conjecture, avoid knee-jerk platitudes and extremes of opinion on either side, develop as broad a concensus as possible, identify the individual elements within the club that are not treating us honestly, and unite against them. If you are happy with the way things are, then good for you, but there are a lot of people who aren’t, people who sacrifice a great deal to be at the ground every other week, or to go away to far flung places in support of the team. Let their voice be heard.
Time to Unite
Can Usamanov or Kroenke solves this? Most fans are opposed to Usamanov, but not Kroenke. I find this naive, all multibillionaires have done something dodgy or nasty along the way. None of us know what either one's true intentions are. I am opposed to either magnate having sole control of the club. We shouldnt roll over for the American or the so called Russian. We must unite to oppose a total takeover, and preserve the pluralist model as a lesser of two evils.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011:04:12:09:10:00 by Padre Pio.
Theodore roosevelt - In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.
Can We Now Trust The Process 🤔🤷🏿♀️ or Should We Still Remain Cautious 🙇🏿♀️
on the fighting last week, did you have first hand experience of it, see it or hear the arguements, cos if not why do you put all the blame on it on the pro-club or pro wenger fans, why say they are the ones who threatened those protesting, cos plain and simply the ones who have demonstrated and voiced hate on here and on other arsenal blogs have in my experience nearly totally been the anti wenger side, and talking about the anti wenger brigade why can't they make their point without the hate, without the bile, you accuse the pro-wengerites of wanting to polarise the arguement, while in my experience it is the anti-wenger brigade who seek this, and who actually encourage it even more by adding hate and bile to so much of their arguements on any issue. Statements such as saying one is ashamed to be a gooner when the team is 2nd in the league only lessens the impact of any proper grievence.
Also I despite many times stating Wenger should have won at least twice the amount of trophies he has, and that he has many faults, etc am still almost always labelled a pro-wenger, or party liner, or happy clapper etc, by the anti-wenger brigade cos I argue against the hate and bile, cos I point out flaws in their logic or arguements, for me this is another example of the anti-wenger side trying to polarise the arguement, either you are totally against wenger and want him out or you are dismissed as some kind of blind loyalist who worship wenger and think he created arsenal, and as a gooner who can vividily remember walking into the main entrance at highbury to the ticket office and buying a £6 ticket for my first game at Highbury I reject this childish swipe by the moaners and groaners.
Congratulations Celine on a fine article, and I may be back to point out more faults if I get time to read it all again as it being so long I may have missed more points I may differ with you on, but I do agree with some of your points, especially the PLC things, but do you think that it is even remotely possible for fans to get more say in how any large club is run, the thing is so big, so rich, so powerfull, how can fans change it, would also ask do you think any other regular FAPL club is any different than arsenal when it comes to how it treats its fans, don't all club websites put nothing but positive spin on their sites, don't all clubs do these special offers etc,
Also Celine our chairmans comments about "silly fans complaining" has to put in context, he was responding to the supporters group statement about their displeasure of the state of the team at this moment, which even you have to admit was bad timing at best and in reality silly to not wait till either we can not win the league or till the season end. What possible good could come of such a statement at this stage of the season.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:04:10:23:24:34 by eduardo.
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One thing I'm glad you mentioned and can't be mentioned enough is the role of George Graham in our changing fortunes (6 trophies in 8 years). I get sick and tired of people telling me that the club will collapse witout Wenger. We didn't collapse when we dismissed at the time our greatest ever manager (graham) in fact after a breif pause we actually got stronger.
Sky Sports News and AST have both said they have evidence that Kroenke wil be the majority shareholder by the enedf of tomorrow. As this has not yet happened the article describes it as a possible takeover. It seems to me its the right thing to do to protect the pluralist model of ownnership.
According to reports it was anti board/wenger supporters that were threatened. either way Celine does not advocate anyone threatening anyone, we should be able to disagree civilly.
The AST statement was quite a moderate one and was misrepresented by the press. Hill Wood make quite an obnoxious threat in response. Indeed the board felt so embarrassed by him that they issued a statement contradicting him.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Theodore roosevelt - In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.
What I see, if 62% is being held by Stan there is noway Usmanov will hang on to the club with his 27% odd unless they decide to run it together which is that fuc.k all idea of pluralism..not that I want to see personally.
The only pluralism will remain for a while may be the AST representing minority shareholders 11% or so..which Stan will eventually grab it may be in year or so.
See the problem is put yourself in place of Stan or whoever takingover the club..you wouldn't put your freaking $350million odd to keep it listed and have some minority shareholders voice on your assets when the fortune is something around only a billion dollars worth.
Things has to change, this world is too dynamic and you are dead without a change..in Arsenal it seems changing Pat Rice is like climbing mountain. Time has changed time to move on.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Expand the horizon CD, football is a game where if you lose you get to try again next week but there is a war being fought and some unelected body at the UN and others in banking decided that we are the enemy and if we lose there will be no next season.
That kind of passion requires direction, I am not attempting to patronise you and I know you are not a boy but football has its place.
I'm not saying not to be passionate about Arsenal I am too to an extent but there are bigger fish to fry and football is at this point a distraction.
Google Vid or Youtube: What in the world are they spraying.
Watch it, its the tip of an iceberg which I know much about and I'm prepared to show you what I know.
What happens to a conspiracy theory once you introduce facts ?
I'm off to badger Bloomberg for having such poor sports coverage
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
I have not a clue what the reported take over will mean to the club or the policies therein,I cannot see massive changes or any real increase in net spend,if it stabilises the club I will be happy,I just hope some sensible selling and purchasing will ensue.
Crumbs disappointed that was a bit strong. By the way I doubt if we can win the league, doesnt mean i wont get behind the team, I want to beat Lpool and manure. especially Man ure.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
do you think our team is so pathetic that they need keeping in cotton wool. AST expressed disappointment but stressed the importance of keeping behind the team whilst we could still win a trophy.
I think a lot of fans would put it far stronger, it was most restrained. Wenger is getting out of touch, doesnt he know that talking about a quadruple and then blowing all four in a month leaves people disapointed. I would love to win the league this season but this lot couldnt win a dominos comp. They have blown it Man U have it to lose.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
The day I see our players grinning inanely atop an open top bus celebrating fourth spot is the day I abandon all hope in Arsenal.
Unless you have invented a special drug that eradicates human nature things will not change. Exactly what will you do to improve things?
The very title of the competition flies in the face of what it has become,its a money spinner for all involved and little more.
The league winners should be the only club from each country involved .
Quote:eduardo
celine what makes you think kroenke is going to make a takeover bid, he and the board have stated that that they want to maintain your wished for pluralist model, and they have given their backing to the fanshare scheme too (no need to answer this as I have just seen the kroenke takeover stories, which suprised me, I knew Danny Fiszman was considering selling up due to his ill health but hoped he would beat the cancer and stay on)
on the fighting last week, did you have first hand experience of it, see it or hear the arguements, cos if not why do you put all the blame on it on the pro-club or pro wenger fans, why say they are the ones who threatened those protesting, cos plain and simply the ones who have demonstrated and voiced hate on here and on other arsenal blogs have in my experience nearly totally been the anti wenger side, and talking about the anti wenger brigade why can't they make their point without the hate, without the bile, you accuse the pro-wengerites of wanting to polarise the arguement, while in my experience it is the anti-wenger brigade who seek this, and who actually encourage it even more by adding hate and bile to so much of their arguements on any issue. Statements such as saying one is ashamed to be a gooner when the team is 2nd in the league only lessens the impact of any proper grievence.
Also I despite many times stating Wenger should have won at least twice the amount of trophies he has, and that he has many faults, etc am still almost always labelled a pro-wenger, or party liner, or happy clapper etc, by the anti-wenger brigade cos I argue against the hate and bile, cos I point out flaws in their logic or arguements, for me this is another example of the anti-wenger side trying to polarise the arguement, either you are totally against wenger and want him out or you are dismissed as some kind of blind loyalist who worship wenger and think he created arsenal, and as a gooner who can vividily remember walking into the main entrance at highbury to the ticket office and buying a £6 ticket for my first game at Highbury I reject this childish swipe by the moaners and groaners.
Congratulations Celine on a fine article, and I may be back to point out more faults if I get time to read it all again as it being so long I may have missed more points I may differ with you on, but I do agree with some of your points, especially the PLC things, but do you think that it is even remotely possible for fans to get more say in how any large club is run, the thing is so big, so rich, so powerfull, how can fans change it, would also ask do you think any other regular FAPL club is any different than arsenal when it comes to how it treats its fans, don't all club websites put nothing but positive spin on their sites, don't all clubs do these special offers etc,
Also Celine our chairmans comments about "silly fans complaining" has to put in context, he was responding to the supporters group statement about their displeasure of the state of the team at this moment, which even you have to admit was bad timing at best and in reality silly to not wait till either we can not win the league or till the season end. What possible good could come of such a statement at this stage of the season.
eduardo, sorry its taken a while to get back, i have a pretty interesting job to do with telephones that takes my time up sometimes.
Ref the abuse - I didnt see any of the confrontations although obviously I was at the Blackburn game, but the ones i have heard about were people slagging off Wenger who then got confronted by the pro-Wenger brigade who clearly took umbridge. Working on the assumption that the Emirates at the best of times is a massive pro-Wenger temple, it seems logical that this was the main pattern rather than the other way round. I'm not afraid to start chants, in fact I do it quite a lot, I have often thought of starting a 'disgruntled' one, but a quick glance/listen to those around me has led me to the conclusion that it wouldnt go down too well. On the other hand, I tend to start conversations with random people on the concourse, have done for a very long time, and there are definitely plenty of people who think we arent actually that good, but then everybody goes back to their seats all round the clock end, and any opportunity to get something going is lost. And that, of course, is just what the club wants. Twice this seaosn I have been very near the red action section, and I dont get the impression that they are some massive hard core of pro-club support, they arent particulary loud one way or the other. Of course someone from red action may wish to come on here and correct me, and thats fine.
Ref the word 'bile'. Bile is a very strong word, I would tend to reserve the word 'bile' for extremely unpalatable abuse/racism or whatever. Bile is the disgusting unpleasant substance that the body spews out uncontrollably.I have spent the last few days going round the forums and so on looking for examples of 'bile' and Im not really seeing any, more just things I would call 'disillusionment', 'criticism' and so on. And thats my point, the fanaticism among those pro-Wenger seems to provoke reactions that are out of all proportion to what is being said, a bit like if I criticise aspects someones religion I can expect a far more extreme response that say what happens if I criticse someones preferred brand of vaccum cleaner.
But if there is anyone using the ground or the internet to ABUSE Wenger or indeed the club, in grossly offensive terms, then I would argue they are either very young and stupid, or not actually Arsenal fans in the first place.
Thats pretty much where i stand, but people are welcome to provide examples of unacceptable abuse towards Wenger, who ultimately I view as a decent man and a nice person, and I wouldn't feel comfortable with that at all. But bear in mind that by its very nature, reactions of people at football is extreme and vociferous, or it doesnt actually register at all. Ever seen an entire tier of people stand up and start screaming blue murder because they think the linesman has given a throw in the wrong way. Of course its out of proportion - thats what makes football what it IS.
I have been overjoyed and bursting with pride non more so than doing the 71 double,I have accepted barren years and took it on the chin,but seeing us just fall short for the lack of a little investment or the stubborness of one man has really grated,and actually baffles me.To be told I am a moaner or a Spud when I voice my opinion is pathetic but never would I fight anyone over a game of football or pour vitriol on any manager or player.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
But having the potential to win EVERYTHING rammed down your throat by the club/management itself, who then single handedly fail to do so, year after year, is the reason people get fed up.
And the bull$hit continues - players saying man U will drop points - yes they will - problem is so do we.
If you saw Man U win treble you know the fixtures argument is tosh. arsenal won double in 1971 with 16 players and over 60 games.
Spare me the fixture tales Wenger.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Quote:Did wenger ever say these things?hippogunner
Hate Wenger? No but I despise any manager that tells me that finishing top four is like winning a trophy. Or that qualification for the CL, a competition where we are out of our depth, is better than winning the FA Cup.
Quote:And in twenty years time all he will be remembered for is what trophies his managerial reign garnered,thats the fact of it.De Times
Any criticism of wenger without first acknowleding he's a miracle worker would be greatly flawed and irritating to the minds. We clearly don't have the spending powers of cheski, manure, citeh, spuds, real, barca et al, yet we're still a big club. Could someone name me a manager who would do better or even same as wenger with the same budget? I bet there's none. Credit should be given to where it's due.
Quote:Any criticism of wenger without first acknowleding he's a miracle worker would be greatly flawed and irritating to the minds. We clearly don't have the spending powers of cheski, manure, citeh, spuds, real, barca et al, yet we're still a big club. Could someone name me a manager who would do better or even same as wenger with the same budget? I bet there's none. Credit should be given to where it's due.
Come on boy grow up..how many times in your life have you heard a football club is sold for 730 million? Considering the number is absolute modest when the stadium itself costs 450 million with probably more than 100 - 150 million money in the bank.
Now that the club is own by a billionaire, learn talking in terms of 20-30 million transfers, those chelsea, Citeh, Spuds have more spending powers are things of the past. As I said earlier to you, if you really want to support some real football clubs Premiere league and Arsenal aren't the right place...pm me I'll give you the name where you could see all those budding footballers playing scintillating football..
** An Arsenal regular full sleeve shirt costs $95(USD70) here in Singapore..I pay freaking $400 a year to watch just the Barclays PL and you know how much people pay to catch a match in Emirates stadium.
Quote:De TimesQuote:Did wenger ever say these things?hippogunner
Hate Wenger? No but I despise any manager that tells me that finishing top four is like winning a trophy. Or that qualification for the CL, a competition where we are out of our depth, is better than winning the FA Cup.
Er yes he did. As this has been mentioned before I'm surprised you didn't notice.
As for any manager doing what Wenger's done, er no thanks. I don't want a manager to repeat the last five years of Wenger's despotic regime. Any decent manager would have dealt with our defensive problems years ago and would have bought a replacement for Vermaelen in January when it was plainly obvious he wouldn't return. His ridiculous adherence to a youth policy without experience has cost us dear.
I have absolutely no idea why you think Wenger is some genius. A genius learns from his mistakes. The number of times AW has been outwitted by lesser managers is becoming an embarrassment.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Quote:If u think the club has the spending power of the aforementioned clubs then it's u who really need to grow up.SandyBQuote:Any criticism of wenger without first acknowleding he's a miracle worker would be greatly flawed and irritating to the minds. We clearly don't have the spending powers of cheski, manure, citeh, spuds, real, barca et al, yet we're still a big club. Could someone name me a manager who would do better or even same as wenger with the same budget? I bet there's none. Credit should be given to where it's due.
Come on boy grow up..how many times in your life have you heard a football club is sold for 730 million? Considering the number is absolute modest when the stadium itself costs 450 million with probably more than 100 - 150 million money in the bank.
Now that the club is own by a billionaire, learn talking in terms of 20-30 million transfers, those chelsea, Citeh, Spuds have more spending powers are things of the past. As I said earlier to you, if you really want to support some real football clubs Premiere league and Arsenal aren't the right place...pm me I'll give you the name where you could see all those budding footballers playing scintillating football..
** An Arsenal regular full sleeve shirt costs $95(USD70) here in Singapore..I pay freaking $400 a year to watch just the Barclays PL and you know how much people pay to catch a match in Emirates stadium.
ur other comments don't deserve any reply.
Quote:If u think the club has the spending power of the aforementioned clubs then it's u who really need to grow up.
ur other comments don't deserve any reply.
The best way to disagree with you is by saying 'agreed'..
Quote:hippogunnerQuote:De TimesQuote:Did wenger ever say these things?hippogunner
Hate Wenger? No but I despise any manager that tells me that finishing top four is like winning a trophy. Or that qualification for the CL, a competition where we are out of our depth, is better than winning the FA Cup.
Er yes he did. As this has been mentioned before I'm surprised you didn't notice.
.
What i notice is people pretending not to understand what wenger was actually saying.
.
As for any manager doing what Wenger's done, er no thanks. I don't want a manager to repeat the last five years of Wenger's despotic regime. Any decent manager would have dealt with our defensive problems years ago and would have bought a replacement for Vermaelen in January when it was plainly obvious he wouldn't return.
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The truth is any manager who didnt buy a replacement for vermaelen in january wouldve been royally scrwd this season, but not wenger. Rather wenger went ahead and recorded the best defensive run in the league this year. You're clearly blind to the fact cos all u do is moan, moan, moan and moan some more. A good manager does always look at the future - the bigger picture of things - and not sought for some quick solution to save his neck.
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His ridiculous adherence to a youth policy without experience has cost us dear.
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His youth policy is exactly why the club is one of the best run clubs in the world atm. Arsenal just started the policy and its at the expense of some experience players, but it wouldnt remain so in the nearest future. In wengers q and a he said its important to keep the players, and these players will grow to become the leaders of the team very soon.
Other teams too are trying to copy our model. Just try and get used to it.
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I have absolutely no idea why you think Wenger is some genius. A genius learns from his mistakes. The number of times AW has been outwitted by lesser managers is becoming an embarrassment.
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There's nothing like outwitting in modern football. Managers on goal.com voted tactics as the least factor that determinds a team's success.
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Now, why don't u jus name me one manager who wouldve done better than wenger with his budget?
Managers that could have, I stress could have, as this is a ridiculous question as we can never know if they would have done better or not. Maybe Ranieri, Redknapp, Hiddink, Moyes would have done better but as we can't prove this the argument is spurious.
As for this wonderful defence you seem in awe of as has been pointed out numerous times it has let too many vital goals in, 2 to Birmingham, 2 to WBA, 4 to Newcastle. Those mistakes cost us a trophy and four points. If the clown had bought a replacement perhaps we wouldn't have shipped vital goals. Some genius.
Er, Wenger said finishing fourth is as good as winning a trophy. I have a good command of English so I fully understand what that means even if you refuse to.
As for the rest of the thread. All I can say is this was the most fascinating thread I'd ever read, until the immature bi.ching started.
It's these constructive conversations that make AT my favourite forum.
A good article there too celine.
Harry redknap 0 vs 5 madrid.
Harry redknap -9 epl points behind wenger in his best ever season with a squad worth more than 5times of wenger's squad.
Hiddink, yes respected manager, but he has never really succeeded at any big club.
David moyes, descent manager for a midtable team, done enough to make himself unwanted by any top team.
"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.
he knocked us out of CL, and finished highest for years when he was sacked.
A lot of the key players were in his team, Lampard, terry, and even drogba. Mourinho inherited a stonger squad than Wenger did at Arsenal
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
You could put any number of various managers in Wenger's job in the last few years and some will have done better and some won't so the whole exercise is spurious.
Just because Ranieri did little at Roma doesn't mean he wouldn't have done better at Arsenal. Different circumstances mean different results. You have often implied that you're so intelligent so you should be able to grasp that.
Philly the kid, you too only bolster my point, a weak defence built by our beloved leader. If it's down to one player in your view so be it.
Arsene Wenger 840 games 53.20% wins 7 trophies average one trophy every 120 games.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Simply that time spent and games played GG is more successful inwinning trophies.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Quote:DeTimes
Well padre, with lots and lots of money boorinho has been a great manager no doubt, but i'd prefer to watch week after week of wenger's team than wait for one mighty erection in May as it is with every boorinho's team.
Quote:Padre
he didnt have that much money at Porto
Starting a new thread on this..lol...watch the space..
Quote:Yes, but porto is the richest team in portugal and one of the richest in the world. Besides mourinho is one of the most lucky coaches ever, always taking over teams on the brink of success. At porto he inherited top internationals such as deco, maniche, petit, carlvaho, ricardo, Mcarthy, et al. And that was the poorest ucl ever with porto, deportivo, monaco, and chelsea in the semis.Padre Pio
he didnt have that much money at Porto
He doesnt need it but on time spent at the club and money spent GG is more successful no question.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Quote:Philly the kid
The point you choose to avoid is that those mistakes are being made by a player whose experience consisted of 2nd tier French league til last year.
Koscielny
A player who missed the entire of last season, having played mainly cup games before.
Djourou
And an over the hill frenchman with no epl experience who was bought as 4th choice, and hoped we wouldn't need him in all probability.
Squillachi
Quote:hippogunner
Philly the kid, you too only bolster my point, a weak defence built by our beloved leader. If it's down to one player in your view so be it.
If that's bolstering your point, how come you missed my point entirely?
Vermaelen was key to Wengers plans, but you can't plan for recurring injuries. Fact.
2 of the 3 players named above are young players with large potential. After the season they've both had, I feel I can safely say that. Yes, there have been mistakes. But they're mistakes have been caused by their inexperience (inexperience which decreases with every game), they will become a tighter defence.
Squillachi is a different story. He has been bought as 4th choice more experienced defender. I think Wengers mistake here, is to buy an old defender with no EPL experience. I'd rather have kept Silvestre if I knew how long squillachi would take before I appreciated any of his football! And trust me, I'd never have imagined saying that at the start of the season! But either way, we planned for 4 defenders, and we've only had 3, almost from the get go.
Imho, to have let in only 30 goals in the league, is pretty good with only 3 frequentally injured cb's. And as such I prefer to think of our defence as inexperienced rather than weak
What was your point again?
Quote:Ofcourse i knew u would say this and thats why i pointed out it was the weakest ucl ever. Chelsea, deportivo, and monaco couldve won it as well which wouldve still been a shock in any case.Padre Pio
They never won CL before Mourinho or after. They were rank outsiders for the CL, even for the final.
It was simply the year of shock with greece winning the euros as well.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
I love this club and always will but dont @#$%& in my ear and tell me its raining,we have been short for the last few years whether its the move I dont know but lets cut the schoolboy excuses and man up.
Quote:We lost on special circumstances, and so did realm, acmillan, and manure.
Special circumstances in last 15 years in CL?
I'd take Squillaci over Silvestre. Hasn't Squillaci scored the odd goal for us? Did Silvestre ever do that?
De Times has got an excuse for everything. He ignores the fact that Bergmars pointed out statistically that Graham had more success than Wenger regarding trophies, that is we didn't have to wait so long for one.
I really have no idea why we still employ a manager who equates success with finishing in the top four.
Now this Kronke chap is an American and stereotypically they only celebrate winners so Wenger may have to step up his game. Conversely Kronke has intimated that change will be minimal so we may have to put up with the dim-witted duffer and his mad professor project for however long it takes him to finally fail to make the top four.
@bergmars, special circumstances is any circumstance that allows four of the biggest clubs in the world at a time to lost to four other smaller clubs all at once at the same stage of a competition so that the next stage features four teams of relative obscurity. Any circumstance is special that allows u to lose to a weaker local rival that u have previously beaten 3times in the same season while making their women and children cry out loud.
Quote:Sandy, with a bit of luck we wouldve won the CL atleast 3 times in the last 15yrs.
I was born n brought up in a country where we don't consider a man who would've won us a trophy like CL in last 15 years to be considered anything worth talking let alone a GOD..probably good enough for you but not for me..sorry folks this is up to my nerves..
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
De Times "With a bit of luck we'd have won the CL three times."
This is the kind of nonsense you hear from Wengerites. We'd have won this if.........
As Celine says we have reached one CL final in fifteen years. How we could have won three I can't imagine, luck or not. You'd think that if Wenger was the footballing genius some claims he is he'd have done it once.
Arsenal are becoming one of the great if only clubs. If only the pitch had been better, if only the opposing team didn't have world class players, if only Ferguson had retired, if only Chelsea didn't have a billionaire backing them......
My version is, if only we'd got rid of Wenger five years ago, if only we'd buy the odd decent world class player, if only we sorted our defence out, if only we'd buy a world class gk, if only we'd shipped Denilson out..........
I have empathy with your view on the corporate standard of our club, but I dont think we are any different from any other PL clubs on that front.
Apart from Dahjellibabi City or Chelski, that is. Those 2 clubs are the ones that have changed the EPL landscape, in terms of corporate exposure. Who knows, in 20yrs from now every club in the EPL may be owned, as a play-thing, by an wealthy benefactor. It may be that we, the mere fans, will be just as baubles for the gazillionires to count as minions.
I don`t believe however, as you do, that the bulk of the anger between the anti and pro groups is coming from the pro Wenger side of the argument.
You, like me, are a long-timer and understand what it`s like supporting a club through thick and thin. But from most of what I am reading and hearing, the anti Wenger side of the argument is being influenced by an anti-Arsenal influence.
IMO many of the anti-Wenger brigade are, in fact, not even Gooners, but fans of other clubs jumping on the band-wagon to put the boot in. And the circumstances for them to do this are open because of the division existing between Gooners at present. And we, as fans, must take some responsibility for this happening.
Since the end of WW1, 1919, when the FA restarted its 4 tier football league, with Arsenal fc in the 1st div, there’s only ever been one club to have never been relegated from Div 1/ EPL.
Arsenal fc
Let’s keep making history
I've heard many fans of other clubs declaring any Arsenal fan wanting rid of Wenger as crazy.
There are key areas,GK,CB and a regular scorer,areas that have been neglected,Ches and Fabs have vastly improved but I stillfeel the other areas need some quality injecting in there.
For me what is needed at the club atm is a little bit more of ambition and improvement on what is being done - everything - even though its extremely difficult to do so under the current circumstances/market and way of doing things by our rivals. Specifically i would luv to see some underperforming players such as one of diaby or denilson, rosicky or arshavin, and bendtner replaced. Thats 3 players coming in, hardly enough to cause a civil war.
On the coaching angle i think in all my years of watching wenger's teams i've discovered they lack a fighting mentality. They have good winning mentality but poor fighting mentality (attitude). For example, Wenger always have many quality footballers but ferguson would achieve more with a relatively lower quality bunch simply cos they know how to fight. I dnt like ferguson the way his teams go about things at times, even cheating in most cases but we need a little bit of his fighting attitude. Wenger is too much of a gentleman to a fault. He needs an assistant with the attitude of mourinho and saf.
If we win a trophy now, so many other things could fall in place though.
That said, the club is in a perfect shape and there was never any need for a civil war.
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