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Carroll is a thug with a history of violence. Taylor has never been in trouble on or off the pitch. Get rid of Carroll & keep Taylor.

Welcome to the site;

I would rather see them both act like adults and play alongside each other. However from what I have read, it would seem that Hughton has dealt with this quite badly, failing to comment, appearing to have supported Carroll etc etc.

That doesnt help morale, many reports also suggesting Taylor is feeling isolated in the dressing room due to a powerfull clique which is lead by Nolan and includes Carroll

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:04:02:19:46:24 by Neil2010.

id say keep them both best for club on the pitch in the long run and hopefully it was a one off incident, i heard they were very good mates but fell out over andys girlfriend

Quote:

Neil2010
I simply cannot believe the way that the club have failed to respond to this incident. I can’t imagine a workplace where if one employee inflicts a serious assault on another (a criminal offence) the incident would just be casually overlooked and accepted with such indifference.
Carroll’s behaviour is a disgrace, regardless of whatever provocation has gone on, and he needs to learn that he can’t keep turning violent whenever he pleases. Hughton has completely mis-handled this. I can’t blame Taylor for feeling betrayed by the club, and he will no doubt have his friends and supporters within the team. How are they going to feel after seeing their friend’s attacker go unpunished, starting the next game and then Hughton actually praising him publically? It really is an unbelievable response, and there can be no doubt that this must have affected the togetherness of the squad. A very disappointing lack of principle from Hughton – does he really think that because Carroll has scored a few goals this season that he has an unfettered right to indulge in whatever kind of behaviour he pleases, no matter how disgraceful? This is the message he is sending out, and in doing so he has weakened his own position because how can he now discipline any other player who steps out of line in future?

And lets be honest, Carroll would never even have had a chance in the NUFC first team had it not been for us getting relegated and then Ameobi being injured for most of the season. He’s good in the air, but apart from that he needs to improve pretty much every aspect of his game if he is to become a decent striker at Premiership level. People seem to forget that we’ve been playing against sub-standard opposition this season and that is the main reason why he is now perceived as important to the club. He’ll be lucky to get half a dozen goals next season. Taylor, on the other hand, has proven himself as an established first team player in the Premiership, does not have a criminal record and history of indiscipline, and is the victim in this latest incident. This is a throwback to the days of Dyer and Bowyer fighting on the pitch and a team full of @#$%& like Craig Bellamy. Regrettably, it seems that we’ve learned nothing from our previous mistakes.

what did you think of carroll before this game?
of hughton?
of taylor?

the tone of all you wrote is one of vindication by events, rather than a reaction to them. did you think so little of carroll two weeks ago? i think he's improving a lot, and quickly, he has done for a few months now. he may be good enough, he may not. he seems to be building a reputation as a yob, without concrete fcats i'll say he needs some guidance at the very least. we'll see.
taylor on the other hand is a reasonable player, but with an inflated opinion of his worth, as shown by his fathers regular attempts to use the press to pressurise the club into new contracts etc. unless he signs a new deal before the last game of the season, sell him quickly or we lose when he sits til jan and goes for next to nothing. 6m would be enough, unless he wants to stay. he should prove it by doing business before may.
hughton is growing into the role in his first real managerial job, and is doing well, though the added pressure of the prem has blown many 'new' managers away first time around.

the point here is about whatever happened last weekend though, and you are judging the whole situation and deciding who is right and wrong. do you have any information which is not currently in the public domain? i cant see how you can make such definitive statements if not, and again i say you are in some way prejudging this. nothing so far written about the incident shows either player in a good light, do you agree with that much?

Quote:

geordiedoonsooth
Carroll is a thug with a history of violence. Taylor has never been in trouble on or off the pitch. Get rid of Carroll & keep Taylor.

thats too simple. is it purely a moral judgement as to who we keep? what if it was, say rooney the thug, and fletcher the angel, if you were a man utd fan, which do you sell after a training ground fight? i dare you to say rooney! i'm not comapring the two sets of players, just asking people to be honest about why they want whichever player (carroll or taylor) to leave. i personally dont have great feelings either way for either player, but would like both to stay if possible.
i've no idea yet what went on between our two mugs, so i wont guess, but is it a football decision or a moral decision as top which player,if any should leave?

In an ideal world you would keep both, both are local lads with who will only get better. But if ones needs to go if Taylor is unhappy with how it has been dealt with then it needs to be Carroll.

We can talk about the lad having guidance and support, but he has been a bit of a kn@b off the pitch since he started getting near the team, and he would have had advice since being in the academy, there is no excuse for what he has done regardless of what was said. We need to be settng an example and it cr@p that we are getting negative media once again after it has not been so bad this season.

Is it the pressure is starting to show that we are nearly there, and if it is what are the going to be like once next season starts.

Taylor is proven at premiership level and will be one of the top performers next year but at the same time I think Carroll would be as well, he may not be finished the article but he is good enough for the premiership.

A lot will go on Taylor's contract if he doesn't sign then he will be sold, if we keep both then this has to be Carroll's last chance.

Maybe Chris hasn't wanted to deal with it just yet, he could view it as get the team promoted then sort it out, promotion is more important than any player and he might not want to disturb things when it can be left for a couple of weeks

I say sell Carroll and keep Taylor. Steven Taylor showed respect and loyalty to the club by vowing to stay and get us promoted.

Carroll is a thug, plain and simple. Not only has he attacked a team mate, which is essentially one of football's carfinal sins, but he's on bail for glassing someone in a club! Nice guy, eh? Do we need another Joey Barton tarring our image? Do we want our club represented by someone like Andy Carroll? Worse still, do we want our children growing up idolising a scutter like him? I certainly don't!

Yes, he's our top scorer this year, but he'll only ever score in the Championship, he proved his lack of worth last year in the Premiership. And yes, Taylor wasn't great either but he was on his own at the back, a difficult job for even the best defender!

As a final point, I find it hard to believe that NUFC have tried to distance themselves from this indicent. If they were a responsible employer they would have taken actions against both players equally, not ignored it completely! Something needs to be done - but then it never is at Newcastle!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010:03:28:13:48:36 by geordie83.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:04:02:19:45:49 by Neil2010.

I agree with some of the points made by Neil2010

You would not see that handling of a situation in any other work place, it would be instant dismissal,

You go on to blame Hughton stating his handling of the situation!

I wouldnt blame Chris Hughton for any of this, Hughtons priority is Newcastle not Taylor or Carroll, I totally expected Carroll to start against Doncaster and I would have started him myself, we are trying to gain promotion and with the players unavailable for that match we had to use Carroll, so I dont think that was another slap in the face for Taylor!

To add to that he won us the game,

it also seems to me that Hughton is not handling these types of affairs, its being ivestigated by the club,

Niel2010 also commented Carroll would not even have played first team football had we not been relegated,

I think that could have been true, but this season he has proved one thing that you have to build your own consistancy because the start of the season not many of them were scoring, most of the goals coming from midfield, Nolan! but now he has started to get goals the back end of the season and has continued to score, He may flop should we go back up or he could develop to be a handfull who knows?

You mentioned Taylor proved himself in the premier league, I dont really think that is fact, He was very clumbsy in many games i watched and also played in the defence that saw us relegated, Made a fair few school boy errors last season, not to mention his so often handballs then pretending to be shot!

To be fair should we receive an offer of 6million for either I would flog any of them, because if we should go up I cant see a massive impact from either

The more i read on this the more confused I become. Seen stuff today which implys Taylor should be taking responsibility for the altercation, though the response was unjustified.

Either way a simple statement from the club would be appropriate.

Quote:

Carys
The more i read on this the more confused I become. Seen stuff today which implys Taylor should be taking responsibility for the altercation, though the response was unjustified.
Either way a simple statement from the club would be appropriate.

I'm having the same reaction. Originally, I was all for getting rid of Carroll and quick to place the blame on him. The more I've heard, the more it seems that Taylor was winding him up and Carroll didn't know his own strength when he punched Taylor.

Taylor has not pressed charges even when the cops came to his house. Furthermore, he has said he simply is looking for an apology and a stiff in-house punishment. I think that's fair. After we clinch promotion, suspend Carroll for the remainder of the season without pay.

Perhaps, the reason no one is hearing anything, is because it's taken care of. Perhaps, the papers are just spewing garbage like always. Has anyone seen pictures of Taylor's broken jaw? Has anyone actually heard Taylor say anything about the incident? The write-ups in the Observer and Mirror are completely without citations. The BBC, Sky, and Guardian aren't running similar stories.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010:03:28:16:24:20 by waffles.

good to see common sense arriving on the forum. no decisions should be rushed, or made without the full facts to hand. most important is promotion, as the incedent is so far being kept in house, it is sensible and pragmatic to carry on with a full focus on winning matches. we'll know more about hughton as a manager when this has been dealt with, one way or another. if he keeps the squad focussed, then arrives at a conclusion to the taylor/carroll affair which the majority can accept, he will have done very well.

three new members on this thread, welcome!
look forward to seeing you on other threads, if you are interested, beyond hanging andy carroll?

hull last week, us this week whos next wek gonna be? hulls forgotten about now, we will be next week, just let it go now, whats happened ,happened get everyone focused on us getting promoted instead of slagging the players involved off, its been kept in house by nufc, so be it. move on

hard to say much more ttid, other than the two most alarming articles i have read on the matter have been written by louise taylor, who covers north east football for the guardian having previously penned a sunderland fanzine, and neil farrington, sports leader in the sunday sun and currently banned from st james park. in both cases, these writers may be motivated to find bad news at newcastle united, or make any news they find here seem as bad as possible. they have had slim pickings on that front for a while (for once), so this story will have provided an opportunity to them.

Welcome to the forum to the guys/gals.

Think its already been written but lets not rush into anything here. I was shocked and foaming when I first heard about the story but judged it on two things....

Carrolls previous troubles and the extent of Taylors injury.

We know people shouldnt be fighting espec players but I bet it happens at clubs a lot more than we think. Its not as if Carroll set out to break his jaw is it. We dont know what has happened but I bet you its not far from the truth as Ive heard that there is no love lost between the two. What if Taylor was out of order and got a slap. If that is the case has Taylor's nose been put out of joint a little that Carroll has stepped up and is grabbing the headlines. Both young, local lads wanting the pluadits.

LMK is spot on that Taylor has an over inflated opinion of himself and Im really unsure if he is as good as what people think. Lots of pointing and shouting but still has a mistake in him most games. Carroll has stepped up and grabbed his chance.

Geordie83, you say Carroll 'proved' his worth last season. I havnt checked but how many games did he play/start last season. I bet you Taylor played far more games yet you defend him saying that he was fighting fires on his own.

I think Hughton is dealing with it well. What do you want him to come out and say/do. It needs to be looked into (which they say it is) and then dealt with in house. Its a fight between players out of the public eye and someone has come off worse.

We are not in the position to be sacking players or moving players on. I wouldnt let someone dictate things but is that whats happening. If we have young players who want to fight (no pun intended) for the club then Im all for that as we all know we dont have a lot of wedge.

The problem that you have is when is Carroll going to grow up, he has made a few mistakes which has all resulted in trouble and he has a court case as well. Though it doesn't matter what the club says now we will never know the truth. We didn't really see Carroll last year except the odd time, the reason being the big names forwards that we had but the lad will be good enough for the premiership but out of the 2 Taylor is a proven players and was part of the relegation team but then we had players that performed a lot worse.

I think Hughton has done a great job, and maybe we did have a lot more quality than the others but he kept getting the results, I think it could have been dealt with better but then we have important games and he won't want to rock the boat.

Tbh until the season is over and we know all the ins and outs not some rag report, I would leave it and let the dust settle. All the players minds need to be on the pitch and that only. In the summer sell/fine whatever needs to be done but only in the summer.

saying all that tho going of the rag story carrol seems to have over reacted, possibly taylor has hit a sore point with him. maybe should of showed more respect towards carrol. I really dont know seems like handbags and a stoy made out of nothing. Tho by the looks of it Carrol is slightly more to blame for breaking the jaw of one of our better players returning form injury which could make a difference tot he end of the season.

Nile Ranger, a far more exciting prospect than Carroll, is having his chances to improve hindered by a guy who is a thug off of the pitch and 'not all that' on it.

Strangely enough, Ranger was sacked by Southampton (i think) for nicking some first team kit and flogging it for booze money. He hasn't put a foot wrong for Newcastle but Carroll gets the nod AND (disgraceful) public backing from his manager. Ranger must be wandering what he gained by turning over a new leaf, or why he even bothered when thuggery is seemingly rewarded.

As for dressing room cliques -- can you imagine them being entertained at any other club? The manager is there to call the shots and make the tough decisions and if they can't then they have no right to be there.

nobody knows and will ever know apart from carroll and taylor what happened leading up to the incident, taylor may have been winding carroll up and i very much doubt carroll meant to break taylors jaw.

There are a number of ways to look at this incident:

Carroll:

He has already had training ground bust ups in the past with team mates, he is facing a serious charge in his upcoming court case and could end up in prison and while on bail assaults another team mate which again could of resulted in a custodial sentence.

He is unproven in the premier league, fair enough he's doing a good job in the championship but can you see him having as much joy against top defenders

he is still young and seems to be wanted by a number of premier league teams who are willing to pay good money for him although will this be the case if he carries on the way he is going and ends up in jail like Barton and ends up a player nobody wants to touch.

he is one of our most sellable assets at the minute but how long will this last, if we get a good offer at the end of the season i would take it, he is getting to the stage where the liability is starting to outweigh the promise he is showing,

Taylor:

He has been the one plus point of a poor defence for many seasons now and has been lumbered with playing next to some of the worst cenratl defenders i have seen and yet still looked good.

He is proven at premier league level and if we could get a good partner for him to play alongside he would again be a key part of our first team

there have been issues with contracts etc but then when you look at the likes of smith, butt, ameobi etc and the salaries they receive why shouldn't he want more,


As with carroll he is one of our most sellable assets at the minute with interest from premier league teams, he has had opportunities to jump ship but stayed to help the club.


In conclusion i would hope that they can resolve this problem and move on together if they cant then i would personally get rid of Carroll before Taylor, carroll is an asset at the minute, would he be one after a stint in the slammer?

we could sell taylor for 6million but how much would it cost to replace him?

there have been people on here saying Hughton has handled the issue badly and to be honest i think the promotion fight has tied his hands to a degree, if we were already promoted or had no chance of getting promoted i would imagine Carroll would have been suspended until the investigation had been concluded.

Personally i would like to see Hughton replaced with an experienced manager if we are promoted, he showed nothing last season to say he can manage in the premiership, he may have gained experience this season but has shown no improvement on his tactical awareness, he hasn't really strengthened the squad to cope with a season in the premier league

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010:04:02:19:44:57 by Neil2010.

I say wait till in the summer see if the players patch things up if not one of em has got to go for me it would have to be carroll with his tarred record on the violence front

Neil, all very easy to do tied up in a little bow. But it isnt is it.

You are trying to make out that Hughton almost backed him for wedging carroll. I dont think he did. He wants to deflect anything that might come our way and he backed his performance not his actions. I know you will say that he backed him over taylor by playing him but I dont agree.

Ferguson, arguably the best manager ever, would not come out and slate his player publically.

Carroll is getting into a few daft scrapes but after he was arrested he has really knuckled (again no pun intended) down and performed. Nobody really knows the facts of his arrest but have heard that the other lad is a bit of a tool and possibly provoked carroll though his girlfriend. I hate anybody who glasses somebody else but he hasnt been charged with a sect 18, its a sect 47 actual bodily harm, so I dont think the lads injuries will be too bad. He needs to be told he cant go aroung like billy big b00ll0cks but to sack him after a few bits of bother would be foolish. Its not as if we are man city or have an endless supply of young players coming through.

Lets not slate anyone here without knowing the facts. Likes been said, let the dust settle. Who knows, in a couple of years Taylor might be our captain at the back with Carroll and Ranger leading the attack.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:04:02:19:44:26 by Neil2010.

Quote:

custurd
Nile Ranger, a far more exciting prospect than Carroll, is having his chances to improve hindered by a guy who is a thug off of the pitch and 'not all that' on it.
Strangely enough, Ranger was sacked by Southampton (i think) for nicking some first team kit and flogging it for booze money.

He is no angel, he spent 11 weeks in a Young Offender's Institute for his part in an armed street robbery!

But since leaving London has kept out of trouble, they moved him here to get away from troublesome friends

Quote:

mentalman
Personally i would like to see Hughton replaced with an experienced manager if we are promoted, he showed nothing last season to say he can manage in the premiership, he may have gained experience this season but has shown no improvement on his tactical awareness, he hasn't really strengthened the squad to cope with a season in the premier league

This is a sentiment, that frankly, I just can't comprehend. Who are you going to bring in? Hughes, Bruce, Zola? No thanks, I'll pass. Tony Pulis isn't going anywhere; Curbishley is likely to end up at Celtic.

You mention that he hasn't strengthened the squad. Firstly, how is that his fault when he doesn't have the funding? Secondly, Williamson and Routledge have been mint. Fitz Hall hasn't been as good as Williamson, but he's come in when called for and performed. Routledge has 5 assists in 9 appearances, and all 5 of them have been on the ground, not through the air, proving that we can play to feet when we have to. Hughton's managed to get clean sheets despite losing three center halves at the same time. He managed to bring back Lovenkrands, and despite the personal issues Lovenkrands has faced this season, has made him into one of the most threatening goal scorers in the league (9 league goals since the death of his father)


Has Leon Best been a bust? Yes, but I think Williamson, Routledge, Hall, and Van Aanholdt make up for one bad purchase that didn't cost us that much in the first place. Besides, Leon Best was a double digit scorer, we had every reason to expect he wouldn't fail so miserably.

Let's move on to talking about Hughton tactically for a moment. Is he perfect, no; however, he has improved. From August until December, our squad averaged 1.625 goals a game points a game (not counting cup matches). Since January: 2.357 goals a game (again, not counting cup matches). Down two-nil at Bristol, he has Jonas and Routledge switch flanks. Less than 10 minutes later it's 2-2 and we nearly nicked the win. Ryan Taylor has two goals off the bench (both set up by Pancrate, who was also a sub that game).

Does Hughton have room for improvement? Of course. Is he the next Fergie, Robson, or Special One? Probably not. But he deserves to be given a chance and not slated just because he doesn't finish with 110 points in the league in his first year.

The rumour I've been hearing at work is that Taylor had been sending saucy texts to Carrolls girlfriend.

IF that is true then it would explain why the other players are backing Carroll.

There will be more to it than this, definately. No club comments, taylor not making a criminal complaint. Its also something that in the past would have been covered up easily, but that cant happen nowadays.

Btw, Neil2010, are you a copper?

a few comments above about ranger, well, the club did very well to keep the incident where ranger set about danny simpson in a newcastle night club in december, which led to both players spending the night in the cells. he's no angel himself,and a strong rumour i hear is that the first team squad simply dont want him on the pich,hence he doesnt get any pitch time.

and neil, do you expect hughton/the club to publically chastise a playerfacing a court appearance relating to another fight? you're mad if you do. he'd be hung and quartered when he got to court, whatever the details of either incident. its common sense that he hasnt been dressed down,let alone suspended. thats like mate.

what do you think about barton?

Quote:

Unsubstantiated reports

Well I think that solves it. Punishment should be dealt with inhouse, especially if its a personal matter between players.

Hopefully they can both put it behind them and get on with playing football.

Quote:

waffles

Quote:

mentalman
Personally i would like to see Hughton replaced with an experienced manager if we are promoted, he showed nothing last season to say he can manage in the premiership, he may have gained experience this season but has shown no improvement on his tactical awareness, he hasn't really strengthened the squad to cope with a season in the premier league

This is a sentiment, that frankly, I just can't comprehend. Who are you going to bring in? Hughes, Bruce, Zola? No thanks, I'll pass. Tony Pulis isn't going anywhere; Curbishley is likely to end up at Celtic.

You mention that he hasn't strengthened the squad. Firstly, how is that his fault when he doesn't have the funding? Secondly, Williamson and Routledge have been mint. Fitz Hall hasn't been as good as Williamson, but he's come in when called for and performed. Routledge has 5 assists in 9 appearances, and all 5 of them have been on the ground, not through the air, proving that we can play to feet when we have to. Hughton's managed to get clean sheets despite losing three center halves at the same time. He managed to bring back Lovenkrands, and despite the personal issues Lovenkrands has faced this season, has made him into one of the most threatening goal scorers in the league (9 league goals since the death of his father)


Has Leon Best been a bust? Yes, but I think Williamson, Routledge, Hall, and Van Aanholdt make up for one bad purchase that didn't cost us that much in the first place. Besides, Leon Best was a double digit scorer, we had every reason to expect he wouldn't fail so miserably.

Let's move on to talking about Hughton tactically for a moment. Is he perfect, no; however, he has improved. From August until December, our squad averaged 1.625 goals a game points a game (not counting cup matches). Since January: 2.357 goals a game (again, not counting cup matches). Down two-nil at Bristol, he has Jonas and Routledge switch flanks. Less than 10 minutes later it's 2-2 and we nearly nicked the win. Ryan Taylor has two goals off the bench (both set up by Pancrate, who was also a sub that game).

Does Hughton have room for improvement? Of course. Is he the next Fergie, Robson, or Special One? Probably not. But he deserves to be given a chance and not slated just because he doesn't finish with 110 points in the league in his first year.

Thats just it though these players you have mentioned are mint in the championship, Hall can't cut it in the premier league and gladly will be going back to QPR, Routledge has proved time and agian he's not a premier league player, Van Aarnholt is highly regarded at one of the best teams in the world and had already proved himself at championship level so bringing him in was hardly an example of pulling off an amazing signing.

Harewood was brought in had some good games but on the whole was disappointing and probably stopped Ranger getting a chance to prove himself

Kish was brought in again premier league experience but was poor even at this level

Simpson, came in has done a good job but unproven in the premier league

Pancrate, has come in and been largely sh1te

Lovenkrands, he was brought in last season by kinnear and stupidly released at the end of the season, he loved the club and didn't get any other decent offers so came back, he's having an amazing season but this is due to playing at a level lower than he should be

Williamson, has so far proved to be an excellent signing

Best, prolific at coventry but obviously not cut out for the premier league

Out of all of the signings this season williamson and Simpson are the only ones which have been of long term benefit to the club ( im not including Lovenkrands because i believe he would of resigned whoever was in charge), Hughton has made some poor loan signings, poor short term signings and poor long term signings

As for tactics for every game where he has changed things and we have come back into it you can name 2 where he hasn't made good decisions and i'm not just talking about befrore december.

He has done a good job getting us where we are but shows nothing which makes me think that he can keep us up next season if we are promoted

I didn't want Hughton in the first place, but he's going to get us back up in one season.

He's deserves a chance in the Premier League.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:04:02:19:43:41 by Neil2010.

Good shout, Neil! You talk sense:

Quote:

Neil2010
There are lots of tools in the world who will try to provoke him, but it's HIS behavior that he needs to address.

Absolutely. It's called responsibility.

*(this no right click s.hit is doing my head in...makes quoting other posts a real pain in the ass...)

Quote:

tunyc
*(this no right click s.hit is doing my head in...makes quoting other posts a real pain in the ass...)

Agree very annoying!

Quote:

Neil2010
But isn’t it interesting that he was suspended by the club for getting into an argument with Shearer, whereas Carroll has done something much worse and yet seemingly hasn’t been punished at all?

No pal, Think Shearer was the manager at the time.

Quote:

Neil2010
But isn’t it interesting that he was suspended by the club for getting into an argument with Shearer, whereas Carroll has done something much worse and yet seemingly hasn’t been punished at all?

Barton received a straight red card that resulted in him being suspended for the rest of the season. The fact that he argued with Shearer after it just meant that Shearer didn't want him around the training pitch. He wasn't going to be allowed to play in the matches anyway, so the punishment really wasn't as severe as it was made out to be.

You're right, Carroll should be punished; however, what that punishment is and how it is handled should be dealt with behind closed doors. The voyeurism of our society is ridiculous. If two coal miners get in a fight, it doesn't go to the national press.

Quote:

Neil2010
Eggs: No, I’m not a copper, although I can see why you might ask! I just hate scumbags.
Lostmekeys: I’m not saying he should be publically slated by the club, as I said in my last post. But nor should he be publically praised, and nor should the club allow this type of thing to happen and not do anything about it – disciplinary action must follow. I absolutely do not accept that such action would prejudice Carroll’s trial. Anyone on that jury who follows NUFC will already know about the Taylor incident, and in-house disciplinary action won’t change this – the cat is already out of the bag. The jury will of course be told that they must base their decision only on the evidence heard in court, which won’t include anything at all about the Taylor incident. Whether or not they will (or can) do this is another matter, but it is equally probably that they could be motivated to go easy on him because they are NUFC / Carroll fans. Remember how Gerrard was cleared of that affray charge, despite some very incriminating CCTV footage?! But I suppose it was hardly surprising, given that the jury was made up of residents of the city where he is a local hero!

Anyway, shouldn’t NUFC be our primary concern, rather than Andy Carroll’s trial? It sends out entirely the wrong message and damages the reputation of the club if incidents like this are just overlooked. So the right thing to do for the club is to deal with the incident properly, and not to pander to the whims of Andy Carroll.

Re: Barton – I’m sure you won’t be surprised to learn that I am not a fan of Barton! I’ve lost count of how many times he’s admitted that he’s made mistakes and pledged to improve his behaviour in future, only for the next incident to occur a few weeks later. I’ve yet to see him put in a really good performance for NUFC, and I think he has taken far more from the club than he has contributed. But isn’t it interesting that he was suspended by the club for getting into an argument with Shearer, whereas Carroll has done something much worse and yet seemingly hasn’t been punished at all?

Well said Neil, and I don't know why people are saying it is ok what Carroll done, would they say the same if the lad had the same history and wasn't near the first team. Everybody would be saying flog him and get rid of the trouble.

Most of us kicked off when Barton was red carded and said he should be sold, but now after a lengthy lay off and a few promises of I will be good, some people are opening there arms, f@ck that, the little @#$%& should be sold and so should Carroll, these trouble makers shouldn't be at the club, we have had enough of them and what message are we sending out to the kids coming through, it is ok to be a d@ck as long as you are good.

Everybody slated Gerrard, so what happens if Carroll is as guilty, are you still going to stick to the same story and say it is not his fault as he young, if you do then you are making yourself look like a joke, after sl@gging Stevie off. Carroll would have had enough education on how to behave when he came through the academy so there is no excuse

where has anyone said carroll has done nothing wrong, or that what he did was ok?
neil, you admitted further up that you started this from a standpoint of disliking carroll, are you now saying that a club fine and ban wouldnt make you like him even less? pathetic to suggest that this wouldnt prejudice a court case, and naive (more likely disingenuous) to ask nufc to make a moral standpoint in such circumstances,ie before the trial, especially when, i repeat, you do not know what happened at the time.


not standing up for anyone here, just refusing to leap to conclusions. do we even know who threw the first punch? does it matter? do we know why they fought? does that matter? dont bother regurgitating the rubbish from the media, admit it, you dont know either. do we know how many lads followed carroll, goading him, throwing (how many?)drinks over him, and how many bars he left because of them, before he snapped and retailated? does it matter that the last drink thrown over him came complete with its glass? seriously, does it? if we had these facts, we wouldnt all agree how important each factor was, or whether any of them mitigate either incident at all. we're all made diferently, and will have opinions to suit. i would need to know before i made an important decision though, a fair trail in court for one incident, a fair hearing at work for the other. throw the book at him if he's guilty, but go through the correct procedures first, you would want that much for yourself, as would i.

and neil, you can get your point over about barton on the other thread, if you get that far? maybe a comment on last nights match on another thread?

You make a good point, but my problem is that the fans look at as he has ability so then we will think twice before judging. Maybe Carroll is inocent, but I doubt it, and if he has done it then he needs to be sold. The club needs to be showing that we are not messing around, you are getting paid well to play football and not being a tw@t off the field.

Maybe Taylor said the first words but then it doesn't mean it is ok what Carroll done. If Taylor tried to lamp Carroll first and lost as he had a glass jaw, then Taylor needs to get it from the club as well

The thing that has p@ss@d me off most about this is that we were getting good media coverage this year, when we have had years of bad, and then idiots spoil it. I want us not to have any of this so we will need to get rid of the bad eggs at the club

...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:04:02:19:42:52 by Neil2010.

Ha Ha Funny as F*ck LMK is bound to come back with another argument, like a Jack Russell nipping at your ankle!

Quote:

Mighty__Mag
Ha Ha Funny as F*ck LMK is bound to come back with another argument, like a Jack Russell nipping at your ankle!

There little @#$%&, Jack Russells love it

LMK and Neil FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

shurrup mighty mug!


great post neil, educational.
arent we all assuming a guilty plea though? i am. so, a lot of that above is a waste, you'll get repetitive strain in the fingertips typing all that for no reason. the judge will then want to make a character assessment when carroll (i'm assuming here, havent followed it as closely as you) admits the charge. at that point we wouldnt want the judge to have it freshly in mind that carroll had been in the trouble we hear about now, so recently. i have no law degree, but have seen A LOT of telly dramas in my lifetime. also, you were quick to throw out (again at length) my questions on provocation, before saying that provocation would be considered in sentencing, well,that means its very very imponrtant then! i hear the cctv will be used to show the circumstances of the nightclub incident, including provocation. not to throw the case out, but to help the judge set appropriate sentence.

i dont think you wanted to answer, so you put that together as further propaganda against carroll instead,and evrything you said was surely correct, but didnt form an answer to my post. i actually meant should it matter to the fans whether x,y,z happened in either case,for how we view our player. i think you understood this, you arent daft, not even a bit that much is clear, but you think i am, that is clear too. hence the tangent.
justice is important and is what we want for carroll (and taylor), and no excuses will be made here if this goes badly for andy. on the barton thread i mentioned the protection a player qualifies for in such situations, it was my opinion on that thread that barton didnt qualify for our protection as fans. its my opinion here that carroll does, FOR THE TIME BEING at least.

if you go back through the boardsover bartons time, you might find in terms of attitude we are closer than you make in your paragraph, i just dont jump too quickly.

you werent here to debate though, or join in on other topics, just to smear the lad ahead of time. shame you wont post again, unless you have a change of heart?


finally,ihave broken spacebar, i've added lots of missedspaces, but not all as its apain in the bum, sorry like!

Quote:

Mighty__Mag
Ha Ha Funny as F*ck LMK is bound to come back with another argument, like a Jack Russell nipping at your ankle!

haha,if you are going to compare anyone to a dog, you should stop humping the leg of the previous poster first!

down boy,down!

FFS, people.

Peace!

spoilsport,tunyc. we got a handful of single topic, single post even, new members who all arrived to say carroll should be sold/jailed (and hughton flogged, and a statue of taylor built). then they left.

shame, i say. much rather talk it through?

oops. forgot an important point for neil/et al.

is it possible that taylor could yet instigate civil proceedings against carroll for his injuries, and if so, would public comment/censure against carroll by the club be taken into account in this situation?

asking cos i dont know, btw.

I hear you, lmk. Too bad Neal doesn't have heart for the fight. He makes some good points. But we don't need to get rid of Carroll. It's another false dichotomy: sell AC or encourage his behavior. Those are not the only alternatives here. But the media always frames situations like that. One can become inured to the thought pattern.

Good question about a civil suit. Here in the states he could still bring a case, though not pressing criminal charges would prejudice a judge against him to a certain extent. Depends on the judge, really.

It is a shame if the people who have just joined have only came on for the one topic.

I think most of us have had the same opinion. Keep quiet and wait and see what happens. To jump in would be foolish, like Tunyc said, support or sell are not the only options.

LMK, as far as Im aware the Judge wouldnt make a character assessment on him as its his job to be impartial and to make sure the trial is fair. AC previous convictions may be introduced but only after the jury has reached a verdict. If not his previous would prejudice the jury. Saying that though, if you're on the jury and know all about how he goes on/is portrayed in the media it would have to have an effect wouldnt it. As far as his previous goes I hear he has a cautiuon for common assualt against a lass in the town and thats it. Common assault coulld have been a push against a lass who was getting in his face. FFS, you dont actually have to make physical contact for it to be commom assualt so Im not going to judge the kid on that either.

Unsure, but think the civil proceedings would work in much the same way but it wouldnt be heard in front of a jury. Just on that point does anybody know if AC court case is going to Crown Court. If its ABH it would normally be heard at Magistrates Court but he could elect to go to crown.

I think the lad needs an arm around him and a bit of guidance not to be thrown out. Im sure most of his problems could have been avoided if he had walked away but sometimes its not that simple. Maybe he just needs to take himself out of the equation and not go out quite as often or to these places.

again, biff, its sentencing where there is room for movement by the judge - not in deciding guilty or not guilty. the judge has discretion between set guidelines. so get on his good side,i say

I hear you LMK and your right that the judge has the disrection in the sentencing. My point was that the judge will not be allowed to be swayed by rumour and conjecture from the red tops and such like. Plus I really doubt that many judges read such cr.ap who even know who AC is. They make their mind up from the quality of evidence collected by the police/cps and how well it is delivered in the box. Carroll will have to make a good impression when up at court, yes, but what is said on the street will have little to do with it.
Plus the judge can have a lot to say if someone is guilty or not. A judge directs the jury who have pretty much no law knowledge. They can direct them to give a verdict or kick cases into touch should he not be happy with things.

I may be slow on the uptake but Ive just noticed that Neil2010 has deleated all of his posts. That really is sad as F00k. Toys out of the pram I think.

for sure, rumours etc shouldnt matter, but this guy wanted a public statement from the club condemning carroll,and outlining his punishment,ie, club fine and ban. this would surely have come up when the prosecution petetion the judge for a harsh sentence. even the slightest chance of making things worse for carroll in court should be considered.


hadnt noticed neil had been back to delete. he was without any doubt at all a makem in disguise, fishing for fantastical postings by newcastle fans. for realz.

Yeah, I thought his last post was actually ... and thought that was a pretty poor response to you're post before LMK. It was just as I was flicking through that noticed he had deleated the lot.

No doubt he is a mackem as all but one of his posts have been quoted so we have them anyway the thick f00k. If he is a toon fan then you dont want kids like that on the site anyway. Either way its poor crack like.

LMK can you remember what his last post was about anyway.

it was about 5000 words long, i remember that much!

he said that the jury couldnt allow anything they knew or thought they knew about the defendent beforehand to sway their vote. he was right, and he knew his stuff. everything he said was spot on, and i wouldnt have argued with any of it, if it hadnt been presented as an opposite view to mine, cos it wasnt, like i said when i replied

Quote:

lostmekeys

Quote:

Mighty__Mag
Ha Ha Funny as F*ck LMK is bound to come back with another argument, like a Jack Russell nipping at your ankle!

haha,if you are going to compare anyone to a dog, you should stop humping the leg of the previous poster first!

down boy,down!

Humping what? your inflated opinion!

Gentlemen

I know I said I wouldn’t post on this thread again, but I would just like to clarify a couple of things before signing off for good. I apologise for once again posting a long message.

LMK – the issue on which we disagreed was whether any disciplinary action taken by the club regarding the Taylor incident would affect the outcome of Carroll’s trial for the Bigg Market incident. The language that you used is very certain:-

“and neil, do you expect hughton/the club to publically chastise a playerfacing a court appearance relating to another fight? you're mad if you do. he'd be hung and quartered when he got to court, whatever the details of either incident.”

“...pathetic to suggest that this wouldnt prejudice a court case, and naive (more likely disingenuous) to ask nufc to make a moral standpoint in such circumstances,ie before the trial,...”

I then explained that the rules that apply to all criminal proceedings (which are enshrined in law, well-established and publically available – making this a question of fact rather than opinion) prevent what you assert from happening, and you accept that what I say about those rules is correct. But you don’t want to admit that you were wrong, so now you’re speculating that the judge might unwittingly do something improper if and when it comes to sentencing, despite having just admitted that you don’t have any detailed knowledge of how the criminal justice system works and therefore don’t know what does or doesn’t go in to a character assessment. I won’t bother explaining, since you’ll only come back with some other spurious and far-fetched hypothetical proposition that will excuse you from admitting that you were wrong. And all this from the person who is trying to make the point that people shouldn’t make comments on things that they don’t know enough about!

On my last post, you say the following:-
“...evrything you said was surely correct, but didnt form an answer to my post. i actually meant should it matter to the fans whether x,y,z happened in either case,for how we view our player."

May I please refer you to your previous comments that I have just quoted above. You are as clear as clear can be that we are talking specifically about the affect of the Taylor incident on the outcome of the trial, and NOT the affect that the Bigg Market incident might have upon how we as fans view our player. I can see why this shifting of the goalposts would suit you – another obvious attempt to excuse yourself from having to admit that you are wrong. It is you, not I, that has gone off on a tangent, as the comments I have quoted above confirm.

I can assure everyone on this site that I am a 100% genuine NUFC fan, and I’m happy to have a debate on pretty much any NUFC-related topic you care to mention. I think it is a rather lazy and idle response to try to discredit someone by accusing them of being a covert SAFC fan, when clearly the real motivation for doing so is because you have lost the argument. I suppose that if you can’t play the ball, you can only play the man! Is there a specific number of posts I have to make before I can be accepted as a genuine Newcastle fan? Or do I have to reconcile my opinions with LMK and Biffins before I am genuine? If I make a comment and it is my post number 2000, is that comment more well-founded than if it were post number 1?

I decided to delete my previous posts and not participate further on this particular thread (I did not rule out contributing to other threads on this site) for two reasons:-

1) The point of this thread was to discuss the Carroll / Taylor incident, which I think is fair game as a topic of discussion. However, the discussion has now become more focussed on the Bigg Market incident (and I accept my share of the blame for that). In contrast to the Taylor incident, the Bigg Market incident didn’t involve any other players and didn’t happen on NUFC premises during NUFC time, and so it is far less likely to have an effect on NUFC as a club / team / brand etc. Also, it is subject to ongoing legal proceedings, and will therefore be decided in accordance with the well-established rules and procedures of the justice system that are the same for everybody (whereas with the Taylor incident, the club have far more of a free reign to decide how it is investigated, what the appropriate action is etc.). On reflection, I think that it would have been better not to make any comment at all on the Bigg Market incident (which I am far less interested in anyway), at the very least until the outcome is known. Looking back through all of our previous posts, we have commented on what might / might not have happened on the night, whether we think he will be found guilty / not guilty, what might be said in court etc. If any of us were to come across this kind of speculation, say in a newspaper, we would probably slate the paper for printing it. I suppose that, at least in theory, the same should also apply to blogs / online message boards etc. which are also in the public domain. I have therefore decided that it would be sensible for me to delete my previous posts.

Biffins: Of course I realise that some of my posts have been quoted and are therefore still available. Why do you need to call me a “thick f00k” – does it make you feel like a big man or something? “Bad crack”, wouldn’t you say, to start hurling the personal insults around? Whilst we’re being petty, I’d like to point out that that only 2 of my previous 6 posts have been quoted in full, not “all but one” as you incorrectly say. I won’t overly concern myself with challenges to my intelligence that come from someone who deducts 4 from 6 and gets 5.

2) I think it is fair to say that the exchange between LMK and I can no longer be considered a meaningful debate, and again, I accept a share of the blame for this. I think that many of the other visitors to this thread will now be finding this tiresome / boring / pointless / childish etc. I think it is time for us to agree to disagree, and my withdrawal will hopefully allow the thread to return to a proper debate – if anyone is still interested in that!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:04:05:22:34:35 by Neil2010.

grow up neil. i called you out as a makem to draw you back to the thread. and back you came. but again you have cut my posts to suit, you know we covered more than one angle. any confusion at your end may be put down to my failure to express myself clearly, though. i'm big like that.
and i'm pleased we now agree that the club were right not to comment on the bigg market incident. well done you.
why no comment on the possibilty of civil action by taylor though? you seem to know an awful lot about these things. can you help with my question?

(maybe in less than ten thousand words, if poss?)

Wait, wait-somebody's having a frustrating argument with lmk?!

its nice to be thought highly enough of to be worth answering, tunyc. you rotten sod!

anyway, i'm simply trying to find common ground, as always. you know me.

I came to this thread way too late. Not touching its actual contents with a ten-foot pole.

It's one of those scenarios where I'm truly happy not to be running a football club.

Neil2010... and I wont worry myself about a lad who comes onto a football forum and so monumentally throws his toys out of the pram when people dont agree with what he is saying.

Dont turn this into some sort of witch hunt against you becuase you have just come on the forum. I only came on here last year and we talk about things. We dont just join up on a whim for one subject then delete the posts that we have put on. Dont chat that sh17 about deleting your posts because they are in the public domain and you not wanting to influence matters. Sh17e.

You could have just joined up and discussed subjects like we all do. Some of us agree, some of us dont. The reason you were called a mackem was because it has been done numerous times before with people just joining to stir trouble on a certain topic.

Wipe those tears, catch you later.

I don't understand the problem with quoting a comment - just click the quote button you don't need to right click - the quote options is at the bottom of each post made.

In a Magistrates court you pleade Guilty/Not guilty then previous convictions are handed to the bench prior to sentencing and are taken into consideration. I think the same goes for the crown court. it isnt the jury who sentence its the judge after the jury reach a verdict so no bias.

Quote:

Carys
I don't understand the problem with quoting a comment - just click the quote button you don't need to right click - the quote options is at the bottom of each post made.
In a Magistrates court you pleade Guilty/Not guilty then previous convictions are handed to the bench prior to sentencing and are taken into consideration. I think the same goes for the crown court. it isnt the jury who sentence its the judge after the jury reach a verdict so no bias.

havent you read above carys? if the judge knows the player has recently been confirmed as the aggressor in another situation where bodily harm occurred,its surely possible that he would err on the more punitive side when sentencing? this could be the difference between the player being in jail when pre-season starts and not being in jail. therefore the club are best saying nothing right now about the taylor incident, see?

Carys-the problem with quoting is that a right click and 'copy' is how most of us put content from another post into a quotation. Relatively, it's annoying to have type it out, especially if you want to quote a long post or a post that's far up the page from the text prompt.

I have to laugh when I read the protests of some of the fragile egos that come onto this board these days-wouldn't have made it to your second post with the guys who were on here when I arrived in '06.

Quote:

Carys-the problem with quoting is that a right click and 'copy' is how most of us put content from another post into a quotation. Relatively, it's annoying to have type it out, especially if you want to quote a long post or a post that's far up the page from the text prompt.

Ctrl + C too hard for you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:04:09:19:16:59 by waffles.

haha, own up waffles, what was the edit? eh? hahaha

I forgot the close bracket on the[/quote]

Ha ha, Waffles-you got me!

Now how do I paste???

control V i think...
still not as easy like

Yep, ctrl + v

Looks like no bridges were burned for the lads

That would be good news. Get Taylor on a new contract as well so he cant walk away for next to nothing.

The way to keep both happy would be offer Taylor the captains armband and give Carroll the number 9 shirt. Both will see it as a win win

Carroll will have a chance to earn it next season. Not yet.

i hear that tunyc, in fact dare i say a little bench time could be good for a young player after his first taste of success in the first team?
i know we dont have the luxury of a big enough squad, but its classic 'fergie' management to cool a young lion off in the ressies when he starts to burn brightly. keep em keen, and if not exactly humble, at least appreciative of their situation

Not the worst idea to make him cool his heels a bit...but I don't think we need to send him to the ressies unless we bring in at least a couple of strikers in the summer.

well, i dont mean out of the first team squad, i mean missing the starting eleven for a week or two at a time and keeping fit with games a level below. i guess i dont even mean just carroll, its a good idea for any player who graduates from within in these circumstances. and i'd deffo cancel the plan if he hit 14 in 16 games in the prem, as big andy did recently in our division

Quote:

TOONTILLIDIE
The way to keep both happy would be offer Taylor the captains armband and give Carroll the number 9 shirt. Both will see it as a win win

As I see it, there are really only 3 options for the armband next year:

Nolan - Pros: Great effort on the pitch and been a class act off it. Cons: Is he up for it next season? Will he be on the pitch for more than just home games?

Taylor - Pros: Full Effort player, who does whatever he's asked (played Right Back some last year) Always the first one to help congratulate Harper on a save or a goal scorer. Cons: Supposedly not a clubhouse favorite.

Colocinni - Pros: Phenomenal job organizing the defense this season. Cons: English ability is still a bit shy, and will he be up for it next year?

how many players have worn the armband for us this season?
i'd agree with the reasoning above and give it to nolan, but acknowledge to him in private that it doesnt make him undroppable. others can step in, just the same as they have when smith has been out of action this season

unless we signed someone who happened to arrive with a good case to be made our leader on the pitch. rare i know, but it happens.

We need to be seriously looking at it, as we started with Butt and quite clearly he wasn't good enough to get in the team and then Smudge kept wearing it but then he hasn't been able to get in the side either.

I think Nolan could struggle if we signed a attacking midfielder and this season he has had the quality for people to look up to him, but in the premiership will it work.

Personally I would like it to go to Taylor, a local lad, young and has the potential qualitys for the job

what, diving around like a pillock, handling in his own box twice per game, wrestling players to the ground under the ref's nose, pretending to get shot by a sniper when the whole crowd saw him handle a goal bound shot, again with ref in close attendance?

that kind of quality, yeah?

haha, maybe he got better this season, but we cant pretend all that didnt happen very very recently

Look at the captains of other teams

Terry - @#$%& a ex players bird
Ferdinand - Missed a drug test
Gerrard - Trouble maker and basically a c@nt

Atleast he was trying to do the best for the toon

Quote:

lostmekeys
pretending to get shot by a sniper when the whole crowd saw him handle a goal bound shot,

There's no proof there wasn't a sniper. The angle of the bullet could only have been as such from the grassy knoll.


/is going to hell
//Window seat please

Seriously, lmk-what's your beef with Taylor? Name the CB with 132 senior appearances who hasn't handled in his box twice. Can't be any worse than the handballs I've seen recently from the likes of Carragher, Gary Neville and others. As for wrestling a player down-I've seen Walter Samuel do that at least three times this season, guess you wouldn't have him either. As for diving, again-I guess Cristiano Ronaldo or any player in Serie A is right out.

Why are you so critical of Taylor for common footballing mistakes? Yeah, he was overhyped coming up. That's not his fault and it's not like he turned out like Dyer.

And it has nothing to do with personality, obviously-given your dogged defense of Bellamy. I really don't get it.

i'm countering the fanboys of an average (at best) player. that was an attempt at humour, tunyc, my fault if it failed to read as such.

if i often fall the side of criticising this player, its because i'm judging him by the standards of a future england captain, as he has been referred to often enough on here. (and nowhere else in the whole internet!)

anyway,go back to september, i came on praising the guy, he was starting to look the part. shame about the injury, shame about the transfer to everton. ho hum.