Latest news:

Taking the knee
Discussion started by the kav (IP Logged), 18 October, 2020 07:28
the kav
the kav
18 October, 2020 07:28
Looks like the bbc are trying to whip up a snowflake frenzy due to ref forgetting to ask tranmere and Newports players to take the knee yesterday. . Complete non story

Viking Tranmere
Crazylegs Cranebird
18 October, 2020 08:48
if the ref gets struck off the list for forgetting I won't shed a tear.
He was a "homer" crappo from start to finish.



TRFC is #8 on Wirral's new Viking Trail
[www.facebook.com] 👊👊

gary anderson
gary anderson
18 October, 2020 08:55
All this take the knee nonsense is getting out of hand .its makeing decent black people feel bad .you should not need to take the knee or any other gesture or be forced to do so .but to make it some sort of law is getting out of hand .there are good and bad in all races colours and religions you will never change that .just live your life in a decent responsible manner and expect people for what they are .this take the knee thing will just bring more resentment and more problems .just be decent and respectfull to each other is the best way dont force a issue

the kav
the kav
18 October, 2020 10:08
Well said gary I completely agree

MESSAGES->author
Doogie'sGhost
18 October, 2020 10:37
I hate taking the knee. Not what it represents, but how it started. It wasn't purely about racism, but as much about an NFL player trying to ensure he got paid the money he thought he was due as well. Personally I can't divorce it from that.

He could have done any number of things, such as copying the black power salute from the Mexico Olympics. He could have hung his head in shame, or turned his back, or spoken out and used his position to really drive home a valid point. But he had to make it about him first and so did something what would rile Florida Man and the corn and rust belts to the extreme. And it did, and still does, but it has been largely counterproductive. You could draw a direct correlation between Trump's rise and taking the knee if you wanted and I wouldn't argue, even though other factors were in play too. Marcus Rashford's campaign about child poverty and hunger is not only far more dignified, it is far more powerful and effective - it is not about him, it is about him using his status and visibility to draw attention to an issue that shouldn't exist.

mrGr33n13
mrGr33n13
18 October, 2020 10:51
Not to mention BLM is an organisation that has raised 1.2m in the UK.

It demands to end capitalism, state systems, police, prisons and the nuclear family.

It wants to reform education to isuit it's own agenda and is an extreme political organisation.

We should have no part in hashtagging the name of any political org, much less an extremist Marxist (excuse the redundancy there) one.

And performative actions in the name of this org should not be tolerated by us fans when we are back in the grounds. We should let our displeasure be known

EgoEgoEgo
EgoEgoEgo
18 October, 2020 11:40
Quote:
mrGr33n13
Not to mention BLM is an organisation that has raised 1.2m in the UK.
It demands to end capitalism, state systems, police, prisons and the nuclear family.

It wants to reform education to isuit it's own agenda and is an extreme political organisation.

We should have no part in hashtagging the name of any political org, much less an extremist Marxist (excuse the redundancy there) one.

And performative actions in the name of this org should not be tolerated by us fans when we are back in the grounds. We should let our displeasure be known

+1

Uptonrover
Uptonrover
18 October, 2020 11:44
Correct me if im wrong but i only remember it taking part with us for the first time v salford?? Not been an outcry before and its coming from the Newport media not our end. If the BLM organisation thought life mattered that much they wouldnt have been gathering en mass in London and wherever else during a pandemic defying strict lockdown law (will also accept they were not the only ones)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 18/10/2020 11:48 by Uptonrover.

Yiggo
Yiggsy
18 October, 2020 12:23
Oops... thought this was about Pickford's assault on van Dijk. :|

gary anderson
gary anderson
18 October, 2020 12:29
There are lots of opinions on this take the knee and blm movement .everyone is entitled to have one .not everyone will agree with another .but the simple fact is it's all got out of hand .taking the knee is a personal choice no one should be forced to do something there not happy with and that should be respected whether you agree or not .the blm movement some say is a extremist movement to make change by force .people races and religions have been disagreeing with each other for hundreds of years and sorry to say this will never change .I personality could not care if a person is black white Gary straight it should not matter as it's the person not his colour or religion or his sexuality that matters .we are all individuals and have our own beliefs on many subjects and no one person or movement should force there views on another .as always said live your life how you want treat each other with respect and violent protests and insults never solved anything and never will .we are all human all live on the same planet and if some dont agree or get on with others so be it that's the way life is and make the best of it .but sport is a pleasure pastime and should not be used to put political point across we are there to watch a pleasure pastime let's keep it that way leave the political arguments in parliaments and venues for such discussions

mrGr33n13
mrGr33n13
18 October, 2020 12:54
so it seems ex footballer nathan blake is the one stirring the pot:

“This is Newport, walk over that bridge and you are in Pill, probably one of the biggest black populations in Great Britain,” Blake said to County chairman Gavin Foxall after the game.

“You have fans here who are black, white, Asian. Don’t you feel accountability to those people?

“It’s not about putting up banners today and forgetting tomorrow. You either believe in it and are with it, or you are not.”

this is the pernicious trick BLM have pulled. they have closely aligned the cause of equality and the needs of black people to an avowedly marxist political pressure group.

not performing for the group is seen as evidence that you do not believe in fighting racism. you either endorse BLM or you are out.

no chance that our club should be using the BLM slogan or taking part in performative support for such a group.

Uptonrover
Uptonrover
18 October, 2020 13:04
Is Gary some new way of expressing ones preferances? 😀

mrGr33n13
mrGr33n13
18 October, 2020 13:15
the word preferences was last week deemed offensive, upton.

you might want to edit that biggoted post you just made...

Uptonrover
Uptonrover
18 October, 2020 13:19
Seriously???

mrGr33n13
mrGr33n13
18 October, 2020 13:38
literally last week.

mirraim webster updated their entry to say that the term preference in relation to sexuality is offensive as it implies sexuality is a choice rather than innate.

now one might argue that preferences are innate and people make choice based on preferences, but that would be claiming that there are empiracally true facts

the notiont that there are facts and truths that are foundational and objective is simply western, white and male thought exerting itself and pushing out the lived experiences of other cultures.

literally people were getting called racist for exerting that 2+2=4 on twitter.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eeiwrh7U8AUyRUV?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Uptonrover
Uptonrover
18 October, 2020 15:19
Jeeez

mrGr33n13
mrGr33n13
18 October, 2020 15:24
this is the sort of thinking that BLM activists are attemptin to impose on the education system.

it's why i am so very vocal in opposing the club supporting the BLM organisation either directly through hashtagging them on social media and using the BLM letters on kits / promo material, but also indirectly by taking a knee.

Eric01 Tranmere
Eric01 Tranmere
18 October, 2020 16:23
I noticed that several times people or groups are referred to as Marxist. Marxism is simply a theory of political economy. There are some academics who see how much the theories of Adam Smith were almost aligned to those of Karl Marx. I think describing something or someone as Marxist is simply lazy if the intention is to be critical. By the way Karl would have been an Arsenal fan in the same way as Engels would have been a City fan.

Cybertron
Cybertron
18 October, 2020 16:31
Quote:
EgoEgoEgo
Quote:
mrGr33n13
Not to mention BLM is an organisation that has raised 1.2m in the UK.
It demands to end capitalism, state systems, police, prisons and the nuclear family.

It wants to reform education to isuit it's own agenda and is an extreme political organisation.

We should have no part in hashtagging the name of any political org, much less an extremist Marxist (excuse the redundancy there) one.

And performative actions in the name of this org should not be tolerated by us fans when we are back in the grounds. We should let our displeasure be known

+1
+1
The way the world works is like this....I'll use 3rd wave intersectional feminism as the example....

You are asked 'Do you believe in equality?'
so you answer 'Yes',
question 2.....'So you are a feminist?'

If you say yes, you just signed up to the whole 3rd wave feminist idiology, if you offer argument about one of the points you are hit with "So you don't believe in equality'.

Now substitute BLM and racism and you have the same trap.

I don't think many right minded people are in favour of racism or inequality, but in todays climate that signs you up to a marxist idiology.

I am off now to check my privilage...

greasbyrover
greasbyrover
18 October, 2020 16:46
Arrange a confidential vote from all players on whether to continue taking the knee, or not. Then abide by the result.

mrGr33n13
mrGr33n13
18 October, 2020 16:51
Quote:
Eric01 Tranmere
I noticed that several times people or groups are referred to as Marxist. Marxism is simply a theory of political economy. There are some academics who see how much the theories of Adam Smith were almost aligned to those of Karl Marx. I think describing something or someone as Marxist is simply lazy if the intention is to be critical. By the way Karl would have been an Arsenal fan in the same way as Engels would have been a City fan.

adam smith believed that indiviuals acting out of self interest can spotaneously create order that benefits all. it's pretty much the antithesis of communism, even if some of smith's work was used to build other competing philosphies

in any case marxism heavily features the idea that capitalism and its structures need to be overthrown.

here is a the speil of BLM UK

"We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures"

marxist fits perfectly

MESSAGES->author
Phil65
18 October, 2020 16:56
Quote:
mrGr33n13
Not to mention BLM is an organisation that has raised 1.2m in the UK.
It demands to end capitalism, state systems, police, prisons and the nuclear family.

It wants to reform education to isuit it's own agenda and is an extreme political organisation.

We should have no part in hashtagging the name of any political org, much less an extremist Marxist (excuse the redundancy there) one.

And performative actions in the name of this org should not be tolerated by us fans when we are back in the grounds. We should let our displeasure be known

Deja vu.
The reality is out there, not half-truths or half-facts, based on one's own political leanings.
You're in good company mrGr: Rudy Giuliani, Trump's personal lawyer, Ben Carson, Trump's Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, Ben Carson, right-wing talk show host, have all echoed your sentiments/echoed your attacks. Giuliani's own daughter has publicly condemned him for being a sycophant and endorsing Trump's "mob mentality". Facebook have restricted the distribution of the page belonging to Mark Levin for "repeated sharing of false news". As for Carson, he's vowed he will be leaving at the end of Trump's term as things are a little fraught.
Movements evolve as does humanity. BLM has grown and broadened dramatically. The political leanings of some in the movement do not represent the organisation and its breadth. The group's support is broad, from the working class to the wealthy, with political beliefs across the spectrum. Few supporters would identify themselves as Marxist. It's essence is an international anti-racism movement. In fact, I find it an insult to my intelligence and that of many others who have supported the movement, that you're prepared to use an all encompassing label; we are not all the same.
Attempts at creating fear and mass hysteria re: BLM are unhealthy, selective to an almost forensic degree, inflammatory and churlish.
I'd rather not be revisiting this, but just wanted to redress the balance a little.
Final say on the matter on this thread, so any further posts from yourself on this thread will just be "word salad", as a historic poster on the matter quoted, and I personally won't be reading or responding.
However, I will still bid you good day and recognise we will never agree on this matter and facts have already previously been presented, hence my view that further debate is futile between us........for now😀. It''ll also be tiresome for many to listen to the regurgitation.

Just a further question: How do you plan to show your displeasure when back in the ground; a little booin' perhaps?

Sorry, just one last point: Hypothetically speaking, if BLM is a "Marxist" (the measurement of which is subjective) organisation, like any other political organisation, it needs the majority of it's supporters, the aforementioned balanced and broad spectrum, to continue being involved to keep it focussed on it's contemporary goals and deter any extremism.

MESSAGES->author
sparky100
18 October, 2020 17:05
Quote:
gary anderson
All this take the knee nonsense is getting out of hand .its makeing decent black people feel bad .you should not need to take the knee or any other gesture or be forced to do so .but to make it some sort of law is getting out of hand .there are good and bad in all races colours and religions you will never change that .just live your life in a decent responsible manner and expect people for what they are .this take the knee thing will just bring more resentment and more problems .just be decent and respectfull to each other is the best way dont force a issue

Spot on Gary, well said.

mrGr33n13
mrGr33n13
18 October, 2020 17:35
Quote:
Phil65
Quote:
mrGr33n13
Not to mention BLM is an organisation that has raised 1.2m in the UK.
It demands to end capitalism, state systems, police, prisons and the nuclear family.

It wants to reform education to isuit it's own agenda and is an extreme political organisation.

We should have no part in hashtagging the name of any political org, much less an extremist Marxist (excuse the redundancy there) one.

And performative actions in the name of this org should not be tolerated by us fans when we are back in the grounds. We should let our displeasure be known



Deja vu.
The reality is out there, not half-truths or half-facts, based on one's own political leanings.
You're in good company mrGr: Rudy Giuliani, Trump's personal lawyer, Ben Carson, Trump's Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, Ben Carson, right-wing talk show host, have all echoed your sentiments/echoed your attacks. Giuliani's own daughter has publicly condemned him for being a sycophant and endorsing Trump's "mob mentality". Facebook have restricted the distribution of the page belonging to Mark Levin for "repeated sharing of false news". As for Carson, he's vowed he will be leaving at the end of Trump's term as things are a little fraught.
Movements evolve as does humanity. BLM has grown and broadened dramatically. The political leanings of some in the movement do not represent the organisation and its breadth. The group's support is broad, from the working class to the wealthy, with political beliefs across the spectrum. Few supporters would identify themselves as Marxist. It's essence is an international anti-racism movement. In fact, I find it an insult to my intelligence and that of many others who have supported the movement, that you're prepared to use an all encompassing label; we are not all the same.
Attempts at creating fear and mass hysteria re: BLM are unhealthy, selective to an almost forensic degree, inflammatory and churlish.
I'd rather not be revisiting this, but just wanted to redress the balance a little.
Final say on the matter on this thread, so any further posts from yourself on this thread will just be "word salad", as a historic poster on the matter quoted, and I personally won't be reading or responding.
However, I will still bid you good day and recognise we will never agree on this matter and facts have already previously been presented, hence my view that further debate is futile between us........for now😀. It''ll also be tiresome for many to listen to the regurgitation.

Just a further question: How do you plan to show your displeasure when back in the ground; a little booin' perhaps?

Sorry, just one last point: Hypothetically speaking, if BLM is a "Marxist" (the measurement of which is subjective) organisation, like any other political organisation, it needs the majority of it's supporters, the aforementioned balanced and broad spectrum, to continue being involved to keep it focussed on it's contemporary goals and deter any extremism.



like it or not, phil BLM is a political pressure group that makes extreme demands. there are no mainstream parties advocating to abolish the police, prisons and the nuclear family. overthrowing capitalism means overthrowing the economic system adopted by every western democracy. that is by definition, extreme

BLM existed many years before the recent incidents in America and it has managed to weaponise the feelings of injustice to get its name linked to the fight for racial equality.

this relies on well-meaning people like yourself backing BLM and performing for them. effectively doing the equivalent of giving fascist salutes in support of adherence to train timetables. or joining a far-right rally as they have genuine concerns over immigration. cherry pick if you like. but the banner you march under is what it is.

they have raised 1.2m and garnered a platform [and are extremely opaque as to where that money is going.]. most are unaware of the true aims of BLM. i am someone who will oppose them at every turn.

and the club should not be supporting them.

and yes, i will be vocal if the players take a knee when i am in the ground.

Marlow!'s foot
Marlow!'s foot
18 October, 2020 17:51
Historically taking the knee was an act of submission. Strange choice for an act of protest.

mrGr33n13
mrGr33n13
18 October, 2020 18:11
in this case it is entirely appropriate given the mindset of the people demanding it.

the kav
the kav
18 October, 2020 19:11
Quote:
Eric01 Tranmere
I noticed that several times people or groups are referred to as Marxist. Marxism is simply a theory of political economy. There are some academics who see how much the theories of Adam Smith were almost aligned to those of Karl Marx. I think describing something or someone as Marxist is simply lazy if the intention is to be critical. By the way Karl would have been an Arsenal fan in the same way as Engels would have been a City fan.

Your right eric theres loads of fashionable expressions the media use to look intelligent but actually misuse..... existential crisis is another as is fake news

Dupak
Dupak
18 October, 2020 19:20
Quote:
Phil65
Quote:
mrGr33n13
Not to mention BLM is an organisation that has raised 1.2m in the UK.
It demands to end capitalism, state systems, police, prisons and the nuclear family.

It wants to reform education to isuit it's own agenda and is an extreme political organisation.

We should have no part in hashtagging the name of any political org, much less an extremist Marxist (excuse the redundancy there) one.

And performative actions in the name of this org should not be tolerated by us fans when we are back in the grounds. We should let our displeasure be known

Deja vu.
The reality is out there, not half-truths or half-facts, based on one's own political leanings.
You're in good company mrGr: Rudy Giuliani, Trump's personal lawyer, Ben Carson, Trump's Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, Ben Carson, right-wing talk show host, have all echoed your sentiments/echoed your attacks. Giuliani's own daughter has publicly condemned him for being a sycophant and endorsing Trump's "mob mentality". Facebook have restricted the distribution of the page belonging to Mark Levin for "repeated sharing of false news". As for Carson, he's vowed he will be leaving at the end of Trump's term as things are a little fraught.
Movements evolve as does humanity. BLM has grown and broadened dramatically. The political leanings of some in the movement do not represent the organisation and its breadth. The group's support is broad, from the working class to the wealthy, with political beliefs across the spectrum. Few supporters would identify themselves as Marxist. It's essence is an international anti-racism movement. In fact, I find it an insult to my intelligence and that of many others who have supported the movement, that you're prepared to use an all encompassing label; we are not all the same.
Attempts at creating fear and mass hysteria re: BLM are unhealthy, selective to an almost forensic degree, inflammatory and churlish.
I'd rather not be revisiting this, but just wanted to redress the balance a little.
Final say on the matter on this thread, so any further posts from yourself on this thread will just be "word salad", as a historic poster on the matter quoted, and I personally won't be reading or responding.
However, I will still bid you good day and recognise we will never agree on this matter and facts have already previously been presented, hence my view that further debate is futile between us........for now😀. It''ll also be tiresome for many to listen to the regurgitation.

Just a further question: How do you plan to show your displeasure when back in the ground; a little booin' perhaps?

Sorry, just one last point: Hypothetically speaking, if BLM is a "Marxist" (the measurement of which is subjective) organisation, like any other political organisation, it needs the majority of it's supporters, the aforementioned balanced and broad spectrum, to continue being involved to keep it focussed on it's contemporary goals and deter any extremism.

I gave up reading MrG's rants a fair while ago for the same reason. As Eric01 and yourself point out, accusing someone or something Marxist, simply because you don't agree with them is just lazy and insulting. It's a common scaremongering throwaway insult by someone who neither understands Marxism, or probably even cares about understanding the ideology. The irony is that it has probably never even occurred to the guy that perhaps he is the extreme one on this and many other threads when he is accusing other groups as being extreme.

I agree that any further debate is futile, although I see he has already responded to your post, ignoring the fact that you are no longer interested. No doubt he'll be giving me a good telling off soon for having the cheek to have a different opinion to his. Watch this space.

pc1968
pc1968
18 October, 2020 19:47
Some strong views here !
I think we should all try and respect each other’s points of view
Sometimes you just have to agree to differ
It’s not a case of I’m right and you are wrong
I won’t add another strong view ....it’s an emotive subject but what I will say is I’m really not sure we should mix football and politics ....and the point made that people shouldn’t be forced or pressurised into doing something is I think valid

mrGr33n13
mrGr33n13
18 October, 2020 20:37
football is political and many fights for people's rights will and have been played out in the sporting arena.

the far right used to recruit on the terraces.

also, sport and football in particular has been an arena where activism for racial equality has been brought to the masses.

the kick it out campaign changed terrace culture. words and chants that were common-place 30 years ago now would not be tolerated and hang heavy in the air when used. this stuff is important and it works.

right now there is a ferocious battle being fought by feminists and trans activists over what constitutes a female only space. i predict that that debate will be played out in a national debate only when it comes to mainstream sports like the olympics. the debate was settled in women's rugby last week on the side of the feminist argument. womens rugby is too niche for it to spill over.

the olympics is leaning the other way. we will see how that plays out if and when transwomen dominate certain events in from of an audience of billions. overall that debate may be settled by the issue being raised into the public conciousness via sport.

so rape crisis centres may well have to abide by policy that has been fleshed out by debate sparked in the sporting world.

so, yes, it matters when football gets politcal.

and it matters what banners we march under, and which banners we reject

Uglybob
Uglybob
18 October, 2020 21:48
There is only one race that's important in all this and that's the Human Race .


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net