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EFL statement 21/5/20
Discussion started by Aldo'smuzzy (IP Logged), 21 May, 2020 13:55
Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy
21 May, 2020 13:55
Just released: [www.efl.com]

The EFL Board has finalised the draft framework that would be adopted into EFL Regulations, in the event that a division is to make the decision to curtail its season as League Two indicated last Friday.

Clubs are now required to give the matter further consideration, before the Board formally proposes the appropriate Regulation changes, which will then be voted on by all Clubs.

The recommended framework is as follows:

1. Resuming the 2019/20 season with the existing format remains the most appropriate course of action from a sporting integrity perspective, but the Board accepts there are circumstances that may lead to curtailment (as has been demonstrated with League Two) or a situation subsequently transpires whereby the season is unable to conclude.

2. This means that, in the event of an early curtailment:

a. Final divisional placings should be determined on unweighted points per game (if required).
b. Promotion and relegation should be retained.
c. Play-Offs should be played in all circumstances but should not be extended (beyond four teams).

3. If a scenario arises whereby the Play-Offs cannot be played, the EFL Board will determine the appropriate course of action.

4. The Board considers that the majority required to curtail the 2019/20 season in any division should be 51%. Determining whether or not to curtail the season is a decision for each division to take.

5. The principle of relegation across all three divisions is integral to the integrity of the pyramid, from the Premier League down to the National League, provided we have assurances that the National League will start season 2020/21 (i.e. the relegated Club in League Two has somewhere to play).

6. Any regulatory solution should be relevant and specific to the current challenges posed by the COVID-19 outbreak and reach a conclusion that is clear and effective with the impact and justifications easy for all stakeholders to understand.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/05/2020 14:06 by Aldo'smuzzy.

Uptonrover
Uptonrover
21 May, 2020 14:18
Can see some argument if the efl is insisting that all leagues must relegate yet league two are not wanting to

MESSAGES->author
Doogie'sGhost
21 May, 2020 14:24
L2 won't have a choice really. If they want to retain promotion anyway. It's a bitter pill and a poor way to organise things. If I were MP I'd be firmly lobbying for the season resumption now and hoping that it is not possible in an acceptable timeframe. Forcing the playoff idea to be abandoned and the whole thing to go round in circles again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/05/2020 14:25 by Doogie'sGhost.

Uptonrover
Uptonrover
21 May, 2020 14:32
Hasnt league 2 already told some clubs they are promoted? Looking a bit silly now is league 2

Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy
21 May, 2020 14:36
The L1 and L2 discussions, including the position reached by L2, were only indicative. They're just a preferred direction of travel to help the EFL decide on its way forward.

This recommended framework is, in part, a result of that process, which suggests L2 has already lost the argument about its preference not to relegate (unless the NL doesn't resume, which is a distinct possibility if crowds won't be allowed in - behind closed doors is thought to be impractical in NL)

Assuming this framework is approved then our best bet is to play out the season or, if it's curtailed, pin our hopes on the playoffs not going ahead and pray for a reprieve.

jonesy792
jonesy792
21 May, 2020 14:37
Makes for grim reading. Virtually seals our fate. The continue the season group in L1 are a minority.

MESSAGES->author
Doogie'sGhost
21 May, 2020 14:48
Not really, they have voted to end the season. So 3 sides will be promoted and another 4 in the playoffs. The decision to end the season is down to each individual league, not an EFL-wide edict. The EFL have just set out the only means by which promotion & relegation is to be decided if any league votes to end the season so it is uniform for all. L2 wanted there to be no relegation but it wasnt something they could guarantee and it might yet happen if the NL can't guarantee that it will compete in the 20/21 season as normal.

It's a clear finance first move to secure the future of the EFL and struggling clubs to me. Still have the money spinning playoffs, teams with no chance don't have to risk their futures by spending a fortune to play meaningless games (for them anyway) with no income resulting. There's just a few teams who will suffer. Unfortunately we are one, and probably the ones who will feel hardest done to, especially as we aren't in anywhere near in the financial dire straits that some are.

Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy
21 May, 2020 15:02
Quote:
Doogie'sGhost
There's just a few teams who will suffer. Unfortunately we are one, and probably the ones who will feel hardest done to, especially as we aren't in anywhere near in the financial dire straits that some are.

We're pretty much the only one. Bolton and Southend were already doomed and, once Macc get another points deduction (I believe they have another disciplinary pending), they slip to the bottom and the EFL can happily get rid of a basket case.

Whatever the EFL decides still needs ratifying by the FA. Usually it's just a rubber stamping but it'll still be interesting to see how the FA would: (1) reconcile approving this plan with the decision already taken by the FA to void the non league season and (2) reconcile the anomaly of still holding playoffs after you've decided to curtail the season....yes it's about money but the FA has to be convinced it serves the greater good of the game. With playoffs behind closed doors and given the costs of testing and the need to take players off furlough, any surplus from TV coverage will surely be negligible.

Viking Tranmere
Crazylegs Cranebird
21 May, 2020 15:56
Quote:
Aldo'smuzzy
Quote:
Doogie'sGhost
There's just a few teams who will suffer. Unfortunately we are one, and probably the ones who will feel hardest done to, especially as we aren't in anywhere near in the financial dire straits that some are.

We're pretty much the only one. Bolton and Southend were already doomed and, once Macc get another points deduction (I believe they have another disciplinary pending), they slip to the bottom and the EFL can happily get rid of a basket case.

Whatever the EFL decides still needs ratifying by the FA. Usually it's just a rubber stamping but it'll still be interesting to see how the FA would: (1) reconcile approving this plan with the decision already taken by the FA to void the non league season and (2) reconcile the anomaly of still holding playoffs after you've decided to curtail the season....yes it's about money but the FA has to be convinced it serves the greater good of the game. With playoffs behind closed doors and given the costs of testing and the need to take players off furlough, any surplus from TV coverage will surely be negligible.

These are very good points, and there is a big contradiction there. Maybe the FA card is something Mark can play here. Clearly Parry is no friend. What a scruffy little b****** he is, & probably with a negative IQ. But I'm sure Palios has lots of friends still on the FA, he has to convince them that the people running the football league are a bunch of self-interested idiots (they probably know that anyway). Nicola and Mark are wasting their time arguing with Parry, but just bypass him. Let Sunderland and Ipswich deal with him.

DevonExile
DevonExile
21 May, 2020 17:04
Feels like clutching at straws. if there is a clear majority, I cannot see the FA turning over any decision

Bored rover
Bored rover
21 May, 2020 17:10
This is a proposal, it would require majority backing from the competing clubs to request a change to the rules. The clubs can present an alternative backed solution as league 2 have done.

SpitalLad
SpitalLad
21 May, 2020 17:40
My issue with this money spinning proposal to include playoffs is that it's so heavily weighted towards teams at the top end.
By including the playoffs there are far more who would vote in favour rather than those in our position who would not, pretty much only us that isn't way cut adrift. Those on the fringes won't object either if Port Vale are anything to go by.
The rest will vote in favour to save themselves or are mid table so don't care.
It seems shouting loudest gets what you want if this works in Peterborough's favour, so maybe MP needs to try that.
We can only hope the Championship decide they can't play & Charlton are put in our position. If not, I've opened the packet on the incredibly bitter pill...

Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy
21 May, 2020 17:46
League 2 has not done that.

League 2, like the other two divisions have done (or, in the case of L1 tried to do), only decided on its preferred direction of travel. All three fed into shaping the EFL proposal that's been presented today. It was part of the process, not an alternative to the process.

Bored rover
Bored rover
21 May, 2020 17:47
As I’ve said and will continue to do so the fairest way to finalise the playoff spots is to include the team to be relegated in the playoffs, As opposed an all league 2 final the winner of the Lg2 playoffs plays the lg1 relegatee in the final.

Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy
21 May, 2020 17:49
How are the playoffs money spinners this season? No crowds, got to pay for testing and paying players for several weeks of training as well as matches. The TV money for lower league playoffs isn't huge.

Uptonrover
Uptonrover
21 May, 2020 17:56
Nicola having her say on twitter



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/05/2020 17:56 by Uptonrover.

MESSAGES->author
Doogie'sGhost
22 May, 2020 13:56
I don't agree with Nicola either really. It's tough to argue that Bolton and Southend don't deserve relegation. It would be near impossible for them to avoid it in normal circumstances. And I don't think that you can have promotions and no relegations.

However we are in a totally different position to those 2 teams. At this point in time we have, probably, a slightly worse than 50% chance of survival. But the EFL have said that this has to equate to a 0% chance unless all games are to be played out.

Contrast that with the situation in L2 where 4 teams will contest the playoffs , each having a 25% chance of achieving promotion - and if the season was to be played out some would have a greater chance than that, some a lesser chance as they would still be in the running for automatic promotion and there relying on a late dash just to get in.

So what the EFL stance effectively says is that our existing near 50% chance of playing in L1 next season is less important than a Playoff winner's 15-30odd % chance. Yet they all get an opportunity to make that happen and TRFC don't. That is clearly anticompetitive. In reality there are 6 clubs who are in the mix realistically and could have ended up in either L1 or 2 next season. (Yes, there are more, but the others are very much long shots). All of these clubs should be given a chance to determine their own fate.

Bored rover
Bored rover
22 May, 2020 15:55
I don’t understand this integrity comment, the are only two ways for the season to be finished and retain its integrity either play on or void it. Nothing else provides integrity even if you consider Bolton as mathematically they are still in with a shout and who knows what would happen behind closed doors; they have a few inexperienced players who might actually thrive in that environment as it’s more what they are used to where as your Coventry Sunderland’s etc might struggle for the opposite reasons.

The hirsute one
The hirsute one
22 May, 2020 17:17
Totally agree with earlier post by Doogie and would just add a couple of points. The teams in 6th and 7th place in league 2 (colchester and northampton) are only a point above the team in 8th (port vale) so they may well not have made the play offs if the season was played out. Their chances of making and then winning the playoffs are therefore much less than 25%. And yes, our chance of staying up if the season was finished is far higher than this.
Second point - if points per game average is to be used it should only be based on games since the end of the transfer window. This would be a better reflection of what might have happened in remaining games, as the squad can be greatly different from that which started the season.

Viking Tranmere
Crazylegs Cranebird
22 May, 2020 17:29
Its basically
1. Play-on if the Sunderland-Ipswich-Peterborough drive can get 51% - and we give them 1000%.
2. We don't play-on, get demoted, sod them all and win League Two next season
3. Mark Palios gets the FA to intervene to stop the demotion as being unsporting.



TRFC is #8 on Wirral's new Viking Trail
[www.facebook.com] 👊👊

nwindsor
NickNotTheGreek
22 May, 2020 20:17
Quote:
The hirsute one
Totally agree with earlier post by Doogie and would just add a couple of points. The teams in 6th and 7th place in league 2 (colchester and northampton) are only a point above the team in 8th (port vale) so they may well not have made the play offs if the season was played out. Their chances of making and then winning the playoffs are therefore much less than 25%. And yes, our chance of staying up if the season was finished is far higher than this.
Second point - if points per game average is to be used it should only be based on games since the end of the transfer window. This would be a better reflection of what might have happened in remaining games, as the squad can be greatly different from that which started the season.

These are valid points being ignored by the EFL.

mrGr33n13
mrGr33n13
22 May, 2020 23:35
is there a fairer way of deciding a season that doesn't finish?

Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy
22 May, 2020 23:47
Quote:
mrGr33n13
is there a fairer way of deciding a season that doesn't finish?

Why does it need deciding?
An abandoned match isn't decided on goals per minute, it's just abandoned and we try again.
A season's a marathon not a sprint. Stop a marathon after 20 miles and you wouldn't give the medals out to the three leaders. It's just abandoned and we try again.
The FA has already binned PPG lower down the pyramid because it's conceptually flawed. Just because there's a packet of money riding on it higher up the food chain doesn't make it less flawed, just more difficult to bin.
PPG is a compromise. Palios' plan is a fairer compromise although, perversely, it'll probably be a much tougher sell.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/05/2020 23:53 by Aldo'smuzzy.

Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy
23 May, 2020 00:16
Quote:
mrGr33n13
is there a fairer way of deciding a season that doesn't finish?

Although I'd accept that fairness is subjective, one very problematic thing from a fairness perspective with the EFL proposal is the desire to proceed with playoffs after deciding to end a season. That's a fundamental self contradiction, and all the arguments for doing so are driven purely by money.

I think every other country that's ended its season that normally has playoffs has ditched them, and ditched the promotion place normally reserved for the playoff winner. This not only avoids the self contradiction I mentioned but also, to a limited degree, compensates for the flaws within PPG.

MESSAGES->author
Docker
23 May, 2020 08:36
One way forward would be. for one season only, to split Leagues One and Two into three temporary divisions of 16 clubs each, based on the present points per game standings. No promotions or relegations between present Leagues One and Two.
The resulting season, when started, would only be 30 games long - and could, at a later date during the season, be extended to include play-offs.
At the end of this process, hopefully in May 2021, the leagues are split mid-way up the intermediate table, and things return to normal.

Viking Tranmere
Crazylegs Cranebird
23 May, 2020 09:33
Palios I believe is arguing for a 25 team League One next season reducing to 24 in 21-22 as the fairest solution.

Fearing the Championship will not be completed, Charlton are saying the same: for the 1st time whole season they find themselves in the bottom 3 with 10 games to go and it would be totally unfair if PPG sent them down.
Charlton: [talksport.com]
Tranmere: [talksport.com]

Talksport: The whole integrity of the game is at stake.



TRFC is #8 on Wirral's new Viking Trail
[www.facebook.com] 👊👊

MESSAGES->author
Doogie'sGhost
23 May, 2020 09:50
Quote:
Docker
One way forward would be. for one season only, to split Leagues One and Two into three temporary divisions of 16 clubs each, based on the present points per game standings. No promotions or relegations between present Leagues One and Two.
The resulting season, when started, would only be 30 games long - and could, at a later date during the season, be extended to include play-offs.
At the end of this process, hopefully in May 2021, the leagues are split mid-way up the intermediate table, and things return to normal.
That's an interesting idea. No hint of unfairness. It'll never happen.

misterecoli
misterecoli
23 May, 2020 10:19
Quote:
Crazylegs Cranebird
Its basically
1. Play-on if the Sunderland-Ipswich-Peterborough drive can get 51% - and we give them 1000%.
2. We don't play-on, get demoted, sod them all and win League Two next season
3. Mark Palios gets the FA to intervene to stop the demotion as being unsporting.

Not sure what’s happened to me, but I’m ok with any of these options, so long as at some point we get going again, clubs stay in business, and people are generally healthy and safe.

Steve Wilson's pen
Steve Wilson's pen
23 May, 2020 10:50
There are going to be a lot of EFL clubs facing massive and potentially terminal financial problems in the coming weeks and months, having not had any matchday income since Feb or March. Some may well go into administration or be kicked out of the EFL next season, like Bury last year. We know Macclesfield are among the most likely victims but there are plenty more potential casualties yet to publicly emerge. Some will surprise us.

Thankfully - and largely because of the leadership of Mark & Nicola - Tranmere would not appear to among them. But the looming financial disaster for many EFL clubs makes his argument about promotions but no relegations even stronger. The last thing the EFL needs to be doing right now is punishing any clubs, either fairly or unfairly.

And if may well work out that the temporary numerical imbalance created in different divisions for 2020-21 by promoting clubs but not relegating any will even itself out as the financial casualties emerge. With hindsight, all this bickering going on at the moment may turn out to have been missing the main point.

nwindsor
NickNotTheGreek
23 May, 2020 12:00
Quote:
mrGr33n13
is there a fairer way of deciding a season that doesn't finish?

Yes.

Don't finish a season until all home and away matches have been played as per the EFL regulations. This means don't start a new season until current season completed. If it means cancelling the 20/21 season then so be it. What's the harm in cancelling 20/21. No one has invested in that season yet so no potential disputes.

MESSAGES->author
Doogie'sGhost
23 May, 2020 12:00
I'm not sure that too many clubs will go to the wall. Go into administration perhaps, but that's just a points deduction still. Unless clubs have terminal levels of debt and major ground and asset issues like Bury did then it is unlikely that buyers won't emerge for any clubs. That doesn't mean they won't have long lasting consequences though. It's one of the hard to take things about this ppg situation - teams that have shelled out far more than they can afford and taken a big gamble are going to end up cocooned and safe, while a team that have should good financial sense and strengthened for the end of the season are going to end up demoted and financially hit.

MESSAGES->author
Doogie'sGhost
23 May, 2020 12:11
Quote:
NickNotTheGreek
Quote:
mrGr33n13
is there a fairer way of deciding a season that doesn't finish?

Yes.

Don't finish a season until all home and away matches have been played as per the EFL regulations. This means don't start a new season until current season completed. If it means cancelling the 20/21 season then so be it. What's the harm in cancelling 20/21. No one has invested in that season yet so no potential disputes.
There's only 10 or so games left in the current season. You can't run a whole year's finance off 10 or so games, which may be without fans. Government support will stop way before clubs would need it to to just have a 10 game season so clubs will be left looking at an even bigger financial black hole. Not to mention resetting contract and sponsorship deals etc. Football income is geared towards a set season. The new season almost has to start as close as possible to the normal schedule for football to survive at our level. That's what is driving the EFL decisions.

Bored rover
Bored rover
23 May, 2020 14:04
Nicola Palios has been quite vocal on twitter throughout yesterday stating that she agreed with PPG for promotion and the playoffs but not relegation essentially appears from here tweets that the playoffs have to happen or the EFL will be left in financial difficulties in her opinion as the portion of tv money is due to playoffs.

All the following is my opinion but I very much doubt we are so financially secure we do not have to be concerned in this current climate at this time, we may not yet be at the point of having to find extra funding but we do still operate at a loss possibly a very small operating profit with significant debt, virtually all of our income will have dried up. I take with a pinch of salt MP’s statements on this due to the fact if he publicly stated otherwise I’m pretty sure all of our creditors would suddenly be lining up at the front door for there repayments and cancelling overdrafts etc. I suspect it’s only furlough keeping us above water for now. For that reason I don’t really see any legal challenge if we are relegated, from all of his public appearances and interviews coupled with NPs social media presence I suspect they are acutely aware that the only tool they have to prevent relegation is to garner sufficient public and media support that other clubs in the division feel compelled to back us and it put the EFL in a position where they feel relegating us would be a public relations problem.


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