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Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Discussion started by PKGooner , 10 November, 2013 18:10
Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
PKGooner 10 November, 2013 18:10
Will they ever end?

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
SuperRob 10 November, 2013 18:12
Selection mistakes by Wenger cost us this game

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
PKGooner 10 November, 2013 18:14
Selection mistakes or not its the same every year.

They have Arsenal so figured out its unbelievable. And unacceptable.

Look at the difference between Rooney and all our big players. He was everywhere whilst all of ours were hiding.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
mapleleafgooner 10 November, 2013 18:19
The thin squad selected itself. Not fair to call it a cowardly performance. But ManUre played with more intensity thruout the game while Arsenal showed up mosyly in the second half. Arsenal's intensity just wasnt there consistently.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
eduardo 10 November, 2013 18:19
Posted by: PKGooner (194.228.32.141)
Date: 10 November, 2013 18:14

Look at the difference between Rooney and all our big players. He was everywhere whilst all of ours were hiding.


agree 100% with you PK, only Wilshere showed the courage needed to try and make things happen, how often did we get within 30 yards of their goal and end up playing the ball all the way back to Szczesny, because to go forward with the ball would have meant our player in possession actually taking some responsibility.
the worst thing about today was the lack of effort to chase and harry utd players or put in a bloody tough tackle, Rooney done more than half our team



*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
SuperRob 10 November, 2013 18:21
fair point about Rooney. We should bid £60m for him in January.

Actually I didn't think they had arsenal as figured out as they usually do. They scored from a corner and hardly created anything other than set pieces. They didn't look particularly dangerous on the counter like they usually do either.

But we are really struggling to create anything especially with Giroud up front who cannot hold up the ball 9 times out of 10 and no pace on the wings (in fact no players on the wings with cazorla and ramsey constantly coming inside). So playing Ramsey out of position cost us the game because frankly, he is our only serious goal threat and you put him further forward or out wide and it makes him worse than ineffective. I would seriously prefer it if we played Monreal on the wing and Ramsey in his proper position. Or at least somebody has to tell our "wide" players to stand out wide at least some of the time. Otherwwise you don't give the defenders anything to even think about. (Sm95)

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Gunners R Us 10 November, 2013 18:22
Pathetic and Cowardly are two words which sum up today and every game against them at Old Trafford since 2006.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
SA-Gunner 10 November, 2013 18:23
Thw thing is, we have many players of the same style. We need a Suarez, Balotelli, you know the kind of player that makes things happen and doesn't give up till the very end.

Our midfield was much better than theirs, because we obviously have more talented players overall. The problem is, both ManUre and Chelsea have figured us out for many years.

It was horrible to see all those good crosses by Sagna ending in nothing.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Gööfle11 10 November, 2013 18:25
Ended today.



Official 1000th poster in the classic transfer rumors thread of 2014.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
PKGooner 10 November, 2013 18:26
That's the thing SuperRob - they don't worry about us having the ball. Ferguson showed that when he played 7 defenders (and beat us 2-0) a few years ago.

They think, "lets play our bigger lads, let them have the ball and just wait - they'll c*ck up eventually". We're so gutless with the ball, so timid and nervous.

Like eduardo says no one wants to go forward. And of course it was a matter of time before we did c*ck up - RvP's header from the corner. Other silly moments include Smallings missed free header from RvPs free kick and Rooney dragging that left foot shot just wide after Kagawa (yes, the little Japanese fella whos about 4 foot) flicked on a header after out-muscling 2 players.


It really is like watching exactly the same game over and over again. Every year.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
PKGooner 10 November, 2013 18:28
Quote:
eduardo
Posted by: PKGooner (194.228.32.141)
Date: 10 November, 2013 18:14

Look at the difference between Rooney and all our big players. He was everywhere whilst all of ours were hiding.


agree 100% with you PK, only Wilshere showed the courage needed to try and make things happen, how often did we get within 30 yards of their goal and end up playing the ball all the way back to Szczesny, because to go forward with the ball would have meant our player in possession actually taking some responsibility.
the worst thing about today was the lack of effort to chase and harry utd players or put in a bloody tough tackle, Rooney done more than half our team


Exactly that. Rooney, Jones, Evans - they were all going for it today, and hard.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Beyond 10 November, 2013 18:33
I have lost count the no of times we lose to MU in recent years. I have lost count the no of times we lose to Chelsea under mourihno. All these defeats have become a norm and we have a loser manager who still can't figure out how to stop the rot

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
kreddie16 10 November, 2013 18:35
Wenger put on negative players.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Bergmars 10 November, 2013 20:58
Injuries cost us to a degree but we rarely look like beating them I wonder about our players mentality.



Under new managment

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Traffordp
celine dion 10 November, 2013 22:01
Wengers teams only know one way to play. We should all know that by now. At the moment he has enough decent players to grind out results in 90% of games. We have a very very good side. But when it's not happening for us you can almost guarantee that he won't be able to change it. I knew today we were nailed on to lose and I knew we had lost after watching 20 minutes of it. But we're perfectly capable of winning the next 10 games. We're heading in the right direction.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
De Times 10 November, 2013 22:39
People can talk so much rubbish. We lost a game after winning so many games for so long and it's sounding like the end of the world already. Wenger has done the best he can with the 13 players he's been using this season. I wonder if there is any human dead or alive who could have taken them this far.
We played today exactly the same way we played against dortmund. The difference is we had mertesacker and rosicky against dortmund, and today we had two players who haven't started for us for some time now. Add that to the fact that we have no scoring outlet in attack and there was only one way the result was going to go after we conceded. With rosicky playing, flamin wouldn't start and ramsey would have played in his prefered position which would have given us greater balance and dynamism, two things we need especially when we don't have attacking options.
Our defence and midfield did well enough to get something out of the game, but our attack wasn't good enough to break down ManU at home. How surprising that is, we were only losing podolski, walcott and chamberlain. We played the same way against dortmund but was lucky to score from our first attempt. No one mentioned it then that we were not creating enough because the result was positive. We have a negative result today from the same problem and the same old moaners are out in their numbers.



"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Shane 10 November, 2013 23:36
I don't think it's time to start banging the anti-Wenger drum again. People can talk about squad selection, but I can promise you we don't lose that game if Cazorla, Ozil or Ramsey is on it - which they absolutely f*cking weren't, not one of them.

It was the worst offensive performance from us I've seen since Villa Park last season. None of them really wanted to be out there and it showed in the performance.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
gunnersingh 10 November, 2013 23:54
Shane while I agree with you that none of those players looked interested, we've been there plenty of times and played very well and lost. We've got some kind of mental block up there.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
RadioFreeArsenal 11 November, 2013 01:07
I think the reality is we weren't playing the same level of quality we had been all year, and that as improved as we clearly are it remains to be seen if we have really improved to the point where we will be playing for Premiership Silverware of another Champions League place come May. We're better but are we that much better yet?

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Clock End Highbury 11 November, 2013 02:00
Its important to get Theo back as he's our only attacker with pace, and I'd like to think he'll score more goals this season because of the quality of through balls from Ozil and the improvement in Giroud's link up play.

Wenger really needs to decide on our best "defensive" midfielder as we cant play arteta and flamini theretogether at the expense of ramsey and jack.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
jar5 11 November, 2013 02:01
This is why ill always prefer fabregas over ozil, the kid had much more fight in him. Ozil looks spaced out half the time, no ego sometimes that is a bad thing. But whatever maybe he can prove me wrong...

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Adim69 11 November, 2013 02:05
our main players didn't play well. Ozil, Cazorla especially did not create enough at all. now its probably because they have no speedy players to pass to, but ultimately they didn't do well enough with the ball.

you can't blame the manager for that as he has no other options really. its annoying but we seriously need our wingers back pronto

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
kreddie16 11 November, 2013 08:37
Quote:
De Times
The difference is we had mertesacker and rosicky against dortmund, and today we had two players who haven't started for us for some time now. Add that to the fact that we have no scoring outlet in attack and there was only one way the result was going to go after we conceded. With rosicky playing, flamin wouldn't start and ramsey would have played in his prefered position which would have given us greater balance and dynamism, two things we need especially when we don't have attacking options.

Come on, you know Wenger by now, Flamini would have made his way into the 11, this is the ever so wonderful Napoli midfield and attack with Cazorla in for Rosicky. We lost on a set play but I expect Wenger thought we could get a few goals with that line up. Every time Arteta and Flamini have been available they've started together, we can only hope it doesn't happen again.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Jack_is_the_truth 11 November, 2013 11:00
i dont think it was cowardly, rooney said that we were tghe toughest side they have played all season. the stats showed that ramsey actually covered more ground than any other outfield player(rooney was 2nd).

What is obvious is that it is absolutely pointless playing arteta and flamini in the middle. there was nothing happing through the middle for us whatsoever. Le plodder had no runners going beyond him from deep for him to do his fancy flicks to, so he looked even more useless than usual

when jack came on all that changed we looked purposeful and manu where visably nervous

we restricted them to long shots and counter attacks that where thwarted throughout the second half

it wasnt great but it wasnt as bad as it has been



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The future is now!!!!!!!

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
plonky 11 November, 2013 11:17
It was Vidic going off and Jones dropping into the back 4 that led to our 2nd half improvement rather than anything Jack did.

Rooney and Jones were immense in stopping us playing in the 1st half. I just hope they can do a similar job for England next summer.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
HappyGööner 11 November, 2013 12:45
Quote:
Look at the difference between Rooney and all our big players. He was everywhere whilst all of ours were hiding.

F**king hell. We played like 3 games in 8 days where Wenger did not have the luxury to rotate players unlike Moyes and we had two key players missing. It's not an excuse but to read some of the commentary on this thread bashing our players borders on the level of childishness and naiveté.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
El Bayno 11 November, 2013 13:33
A poorly-selected Arsenal side lost to a poor United side.

There are still some positives to take. The gap between the two sides was tiny (especially compared to previous encounters) and Sagna seems to have finally found his range/technique for crossing dangerous balls.

The team that should have started is...

Szczesny

Sagna
Kos
TV
Gibbs

Arteta
Rambo

Gnabry
Ozil
Cazorla

Giroud

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Jack_is_the_truth 11 November, 2013 13:41
Quote:
plonky
It was Vidic going off and Jones dropping into the back 4 that led to our 2nd half improvement rather than anything Jack did.
Rooney and Jones were immense in stopping us playing in the 1st half. I just hope they can do a similar job for England next summer.

except vidic went off at halftime and jack didnt come on till 60 mins, we didn't do anything until he came on



http://giant.gfycat.com/DistantVastGuanaco.gif http://164.177.157.12/img/teams/13.png
The future is now!!!!!!!

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
HappyGööner 11 November, 2013 13:49
Gnabry could have made a difference but from what I've read, he was also affected by whatever sickness bug Per and Rosicky had. As a matter of fact, Arteta, Ozil, and Gnabry were sick.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
PKGooner 11 November, 2013 16:30
Quote:
HappyGööner
Quote:
Look at the difference between Rooney and all our big players. He was everywhere whilst all of ours were hiding.

F**king hell. We played like 3 games in 8 days where Wenger did not have the luxury to rotate players unlike Moyes and we had two key players missing. It's not an excuse but to read some of the commentary on this thread bashing our players borders on the level of childishness and naiveté.


Have you seen us play at Old Trafford for the past 7 years?

3 games in 8 days or not, its the same thing every single time.

You're naive, just like our manager, if you can't see what the actual problem is when we play them - home or away.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
kreddie16 11 November, 2013 17:16
Wenger's just not getting it, I've commented so many time about why SAF always beat us in the last few years even with a team of 8 defenders and 2 strikers, it's all about roles. We don't have Walcott or Podolski so to combat that you don't play a CM who does what CM's do, you play a Fullback and tell him run behind all day. At least Ozil and Cazorla would have someone else to aim at because it's very rare that you're going to see them run passed players to take a shot. This is what you get when your personnel is valued more than your system.

Also Cazorla, Ozil and Rosicky isn't much better although they are classed as AM's, they all play the same way.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
CLGooner 11 November, 2013 17:38
I think tiredness may be an issue, three draining games in 7 days has taken it's toll. Not all over yet, still fancy us big time for the league!!

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Boston Gooner 11 November, 2013 22:38
Come May this board will be full of Wenger must go posts.



https://i.postimg.cc/dtJGMW0K/roastspurs.gif

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
HappyGööner 11 November, 2013 23:32
Why you say that?

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
plonky 11 November, 2013 23:42
Quote:
Jack_is_the_truth
except vidic went off at halftime and jack didnt come on till 60 mins, we didn't do anything until he came on

You should watch the second half in full again because we started to find space almost immediately. Jack coming on gave us fresh legs but he didn't really make much of an impact. Ramsey was the one who started to influence the game but Caz and particularly Ozil just weren't at the races yesterday.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Indiangooner 12 November, 2013 03:33
found this article posted on espn before the game

[espnfc.com]

Quote:
One of the undeniable traits of the latter part of the Old Trafford legend's era was that he had finally figured out how to almost always beat one of his great rivals. United had simply worked Wenger out. If that run of results against Arsenal doesn't say enough, Ferguson was all too willing to explain it in his recent autobiography.
"In later years, we learned more about Arsene's thinking. Arsene had a template of how he sees his players and the way they play."

In response, Ferguson clearly developed a template of how to play a Wenger team: sit deep, hit hard, break fast. The pattern was repeated in all manner of games, from the devastating 2008-09 Champions League semifinal victory to a 2011 fifth-round FA Cup tie in which Ferguson fielded seven defenders but still won 2-0


Quote:
In his book, Ferguson also reveals a moment of realisation about all this.
"We didn't need to win the ball against Arsenal, we needed to intercept it. You need good payers who can intercept. We worked out that when the ball was played into [Cesc] Fabregas with his back to goal, he would turn round the corner and meet the return pass... so we would say to our players: 'Stay with the runner, then intercept the pass.' Then we counter-attacked quickly."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2013 03:37 by Indiangööner.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Boston Gooner 12 November, 2013 22:09
Quote:
HappyGööner
Why you say that?

Because this season will turn out like previous seasons.
Fighting for 4th spot trophy again.



https://i.postimg.cc/dtJGMW0K/roastspurs.gif

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Shane 13 November, 2013 01:34
Good post, Indi. Insightful, and clearly illustrates the level of thought managers put into their tactics.

I am telling you, with an absolute certainty, that armchair football managers are the most deluded people on the face of this earth. They're as delusional as the poor boy or girl who enlists for the X-Factor with the firm belief that they're the next Elvis or Adele. You think to yourself: 'what on earth has made you believe that you can do what they do?' and I think precisely the same thing when I see Joe Bloggs offering tactical and selection advice to Arsene f*cking Wenger here, for example.

It is almost as if the person in question genuinely feels that he could have masterminded the victory that escaped Arsene. Tell me: is this something that could happen in a million years, or is it the type of delusion which would have most probably resulted in a stint at the local mental hospital 100 years ago?

Explain to me why Amit's jokes about wanting the Arsenal job are laughed off, yet by the same token it isn't considered completely stupid when people second guess Arsene Wenger's decisions in the aftermath of a defeat. I don't understand that because, as it happens, Amit is no less qualified for the position than the people who think they could have beat Manchester United on Sunday evening.

You will not see me criticising team-sheets or tactics. I am sure there is a perfectly good reason behind said selections and strategy, the like of which a non-football person like me - and indeed the rest of us - could never begin to understand because we work in media, law, medicine, IT and, in Flava's case, arrse-selling.

Take your respective occupation. Now what you have to do is imagine how ludicrous it would be for a binman to lecture you on your own field of expertise. Doesn't make much sense, right? Well, oddly enough, it's not too different in football management, guys.

Don't get me wrong here, fans are well entitled to an opinion. I would never in a million years try to deny the honest, match-going supporter the right to a view, but at the same time I do think their opinion borders the absurd when the focus of the conversation extends into 'what they would have done' to secure the result.

I do recognise the futility of this exercise because I think that armchair coaches are expected by fans in any sport. I watched the closing stages of last year's Ryder Cup and heard a man criticise Paul Lawrie's club selection.

The man charged with making the big decisions in his respective field will always be second guessed by Joe Bloggs, but just because everyone does it, it doesn't make it any less f*cking stupid in my view.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
celine dion 13 November, 2013 07:04
It's just a bit of fun Shane.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
kreddie16 13 November, 2013 08:11
Shane, We all can see Messi's the best player in the world and we could see Bendtner and Denilson are not good enough for the level of football we want to play. Therefore there must be some among who know a bit about tactics it quite natural if you're watching the same thing over and over again to understand what going on. Amit could actually be a managerial genius given the chance, I've seen people on here spot the current best players in the world when they were valued at less than 5mil. SAF learned how to beat Wenger and it's all a matter of learning, we've spent a long time wanting one proper DM or a player that acts like a DM to be fielded and all of a sudden Wenger has two so plays two!!! It's f*cking incredible. Wenger learnt Mertesacker and Koscielny were the best pairing to play, Arteta should be a full DM, Rosicky is useless wide, Wilshere is not an attacking midefield exactly the same time we did, he has a broader knowledge of the game because he been a player and manage for countless years but he's still human.

Big test next, Southampton, only lost one game this season, conceded the least goals in the league. They're playing what I call no nonsense football defend hard, pass and cross with purpose. They've always had a good youth set-up I think they've now got their manager.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
celine dion 13 November, 2013 16:33
It's entirely possible they've got OUR manager.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Gööfle11 13 November, 2013 18:50
Oi Jack you epic c*nt, how did you feel about Wenger saying Wilshere was a deep lying CM?



Official 1000th poster in the classic transfer rumors thread of 2014.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Shane 14 November, 2013 01:37
Quote:
celine dion
It's just a bit of fun Shane.

Maybe for you, but quite a lot of people genuinely believe they know better than Arsene Wenger when it comes to tactics and selecting his team. This is reflected in how authoritative they are in their assertions.

Criticism is one thing, but it gets a little farcical when people start throwing up suggestions on how Wenger would have won a certain match. I just think it's crazy but, as I said, it's pretty much par for the course for sports fans in general.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Padre Pio 14 November, 2013 07:23
Herbert Chapman listened to fans and said he would take a good idea from a programme seller. That didnt mean he would take a bad idea, but he wasn't afraid of taking advice from anyone, or making his own decisions.
If he had lived he would have been a far greater manager than wenger in terms of trophies, as it is he built a dynasty that dominated a whole decade, something Wenger has never achieved



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
plonky 14 November, 2013 12:28
But to be fair Herbert Chapman didn't have to put up with Goofie on the internet 24/7.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
gunnersingh 14 November, 2013 13:50
Shane, when we watch our team lose at Old Traffold on a yearly basis, in what most people, including fans and "experts" would say is similar fashion, I don't see any problem with people questioning Wenger's tactics.

When the majority of Arsenal fans call Bendtner shite, are the majority wrong, or is Wenger right, because he keeps picking him?

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Gööfle11 14 November, 2013 15:11
I would have been Chapman's biggest fan.



Official 1000th poster in the classic transfer rumors thread of 2014.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Shane 15 November, 2013 02:58
Quote:
gunnersingh
Shane, when we watch our team lose at Old Traffold on a yearly basis, in what most people, including fans and "experts" would say is similar fashion, I don't see any problem with people questioning Wenger's tactics.
When the majority of Arsenal fans call Bendtner shite, are the majority wrong, or is Wenger right, because he keeps picking him?

Well, as I said, questioning his tactics is one thing, but it's crazy to me when people go beyond criticism and inform the masses on what Wenger should have done on Sunday, as if he hadn't thought of it.

I don't really get why more people don't understand me on this. It makes me feel like I'm the crazy one for suggesting that the average football supporter could not mastermind a victory away to Manchester United.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
kreddie16 15 November, 2013 09:02
an average supporter has no right to call Mark Hughes a sh*t manager but we still do it.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Shane 15 November, 2013 11:32
Compared to many of his contemporaries he's a sh*t manager. Compared to the average football supporter, those who think they're Arrigo Saachi, he's a f*cking genius.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
mallyx68 15 November, 2013 12:34
Quote:
Padre Pio
Herbert Chapman listened to fans and said he would take a good idea from a programme seller. That didnt mean he would take a bad idea, but he wasn't afraid of taking advice from anyone, or making his own decisions.
If he had lived he would have been a far greater manager than wenger in terms of trophies, as it is he built a dynasty that dominated a whole decade, something Wenger has never achieved

What an absolutely moronic post.

What the f**K has Wenger been building, with the move to a state of the art new Stadium, if not a dynasty.That puts the club in the same stratosphere as the World biggest clubs. THAT will last more than a decade.

Get off Wenger's back you fool. Wenger is our greatest ever manager bar none. Including Chapman

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Eboractos 15 November, 2013 13:41
Yes the best metric would be to judge him based on the facilities in our stadium rather than trophies won.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Philly the kid 15 November, 2013 13:52
Wen, you do know chapman only won us 3 trophies ebo?
Result still stands. Wenger wins. (Sm7)

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Eboractos 15 November, 2013 14:08
Chapman won more trophies per season than Wenger has, but he can't be faulted for dying.
The point I was making though is that some simple minded folks seem to think that having a new stadium is some sort of substitute for winning things.
In fact come to think of it our stadium is really nothing special compared to the very best in the world.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Philly the kid 15 November, 2013 16:08
Chapman won 3 in 9 years. 0.3 trophies per year
Arsene has 11 in 17 (or 7 in 17, discounting community shields). Which is either 0.6 tips or 0.4 tps.
Either way, your maths is faulty.
(Sm7)

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
celine dion 15 November, 2013 18:25
Graham's ratio is superior to both.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Eboractos 15 November, 2013 18:31
Quote:
Philly the kid
Chapman won 3 in 9 years. 0.3 trophies per year
Arsene has 11 in 17 (or 7 in 17, discounting community shields). Which is either 0.6 tips or 0.4 tps.
Either way, your maths is faulty.
(Sm7)

Well this is strange. You have said that Chapman was in charge for 9 years which means you are including the final year ('33/'34) when he died in the latter half of the season. So far this is what any non-mental person would do.

However, your tally of only 3 trophies suggests that you are omitting the '33/'34 league title from his honours. Why a Wengerphile would want to such a thing is beyond me but I think you'll find that by using your own statistic of Chapman managing Arsenal from '25 to '34 we can see that he won 4 trophies in 9 years.

And no I am not including Charity Shields, Emirates Cups etc in Wenger's statistics. Seeing as I am feeling charitable however, I will include any European trophies in his honours list. So that makes 7 in 17 which is a worse return that 4 in 9.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
celine dion 15 November, 2013 19:07
You've left out several '4th place' trophies mate.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Padre Pio 15 November, 2013 19:39
But you miss the point, Chapman created such a strong foundation that Arsenal dominated the whole of the 30s.

The legacy he left behind meant that even with a monkey in charge the team would win trophies.
So far Wenger has created no such legacy.
My argument is that Chapmans legacy is the greatest.



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Eboractos 15 November, 2013 19:59
Quote:
Padre Pio
But you miss the point, Chapman created such a strong foundation that Arsenal dominated the whole of the 30s.
The legacy he left behind meant that even with a monkey in charge the team would win trophies.
So far Wenger has created no such legacy.
My argument is that Chapmans legacy is the greatest.

No I agree with you Padre. Plus it's not only what HC did with Arsenal but also the fact that he did the same with Huddersfield that makes him a far superior manager to Wenger

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Padre Pio 15 November, 2013 20:17
good point Ebor, he won the league 3 times in a row with Huddersfield, and if he had lived he would have been the manager of an Arsenal team that did win league 3 times in a row as well



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Eboractos 15 November, 2013 21:02
Chapman was the first manager to lead a team to 3 consecutive league titles then he switched clubs and did it all over again.
Wenger struggles to do up his own coat.

It's not even close.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Philly the kid 15 November, 2013 22:10
So if you guys are going to bring in their entire histories. How do you account for Wengers Monaco years when he lost to cheats? And do his accomplishments at Nagoya count?
They both have very impressive regimes. There is no doubt. But seeing as Wenger still runs our club (in many senses). Legacy is something he really can't be judged on yet. These days really could be the springboard to something better yet. Without the benefit of hindsight that chapman benefits from. Honestly. Who can say whose legacy has benefitted us more?

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Shane 15 November, 2013 23:54
Quote:
Eboractos
Chapman was the first manager to lead a team to 3 consecutive league titles then he switched clubs and did it all over again.
Wenger struggles to do up his own coat.

It's not even close.

I can scarcely believe you're taking that stance over two football managers whose appointments are separated by no less than 71 years.

Yes, it was a good year for Arsenal in 1925 when we appointed Herb. It also a good year for Italian fascists because, when Chapman took charge of the Arsenal, Mussolini took charge of Italy.

Furthermore, it was also a good year for technology, as John Logie Baird invented the television, while it was also a good year for racists, with some 40,000 KKK members marching in Washington for a popularity parade.

Do you see the relevance of any of this? I'm trying to contextualise how f*cking long ago this was and, considering the world has changed quite a lot since then, so has everything in it - including football.

It's some 80 years since we won our first title, meaning that the game is 80 years wiser and more sophisticated than it was way back when. You can't ignore this fact and proceed to directly compare them and say things like "it's not even close".

Football has changed for the better since the 1930s.
Wilshere would have gotten away with smoking, for example; partially because the long-term effects had not yet been established, but also because there were only about 17 cameras in circulation in Britain at the time.

Chapman was great in his era, while few would begrudge Wenger the same praise so it's best to leave it at that and not compare people whose achievements are separated by 80 years because they don't translate. Entirely different landscapes.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
De Times 16 November, 2013 11:06
Quote:
karsene16
SAF learned how to beat Wenger and it's all a matter of learning,
Talking like the proper idiot that you are.



"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
kreddie16 16 November, 2013 11:49
Quote:
De Times
Quote:
karsene16
SAF learned how to beat Wenger and it's all a matter of learning,
Talking like the proper idiot that you are.

It's in his book in black and white.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Eboractos 16 November, 2013 19:49
Quote:
ShaneÖ

Do you see the relevance of any of this?

You've learnt how to copy and paste from Wikipedia?

If you think that in 80 years time people will be talking about Wenger in the way people still talk about HC then I suspect you would be very much mistaken. Chapman will forever be remembered as one of the great managers of all time. Wenger will most likely not and will probably be remembered as a man who got stuck in a loop as much as for his early triumphs.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Shane 16 November, 2013 23:42
I can assure you that history will prove you very, very wrong.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
De Times 19 November, 2013 04:10
Quote:
karsene16
Quote:
De Times
Quote:
karsene16
SAF learned how to beat Wenger and it's all a matter of learning,
Talking like the proper idiot that you are.

It's in his book in black and white.
Well, in whatever letter, phrase, sentence, or paragraph he's written those words, he failed to add that he only learned how to beat Wenger's team by spending billions of pounds on building what was forever the biggest and largest squad in the premierleague. He practically was immune to injuries by virtue of the size of his squad, he could afford to assemble a second team which always was as good as his first team and a third team that could improve many other premier league side. With the salary he could pay, there was stability in his squad with players not bothering to leave, and the only thing he was doing, which was a piece of cake for a good manager (granted), was just to manage that stability while being paid millions of pounds.
Wenger is competing again, just with one season not having to sell his best players. Just imagine what could have happened with eight years of such stability. And in reverse, imagine for a moment what would have happened to Ferguson and his lovely records, if he had to deal with 8 years of instability. One thing I'm sure would have happened to Wenger is he would never have lost 8-2 to ManU, and I'm also sure that Ferguson would have abandoned his beloved ManU a long time ago.



"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
celine dion 19 November, 2013 07:03
What, like a leveraged buyout?

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
mallyx68 19 November, 2013 07:40
Quote:
Eboractos
Yes the best metric would be to judge him based on the facilities in our stadium rather than trophies won.

When you are talking about building a dynasty, yes of course it needs to be taken into account.

The move to a more modern larger stadium probably leaves a bigger legacy than winnng 3 titles on the bounce.

I'm not trying to belittle the achievements of Chapman which were done in an entirely different era but you guys do try and belittle what Wenger has done for this football club.

Someday, hopefully, you will understand.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
kreddie16 19 November, 2013 09:47
Quote:
De Times
Quote:
karsene16
Quote:
De Times
Quote:
karsene16
SAF learned how to beat Wenger and it's all a matter of learning,
Talking like the proper idiot that you are.

It's in his book in black and white.
Well, in whatever letter, phrase, sentence, or paragraph he's written those words, he failed to add that he only learned how to beat Wenger's team by spending billions of pounds on building what was forever the biggest and largest squad in the premierleague. He practically was immune to injuries by virtue of the size of his squad, he could afford to assemble a second team which always was as good as his first team and a third team that could improve many other premier league side. With the salary he could pay, there was stability in his squad with players not bothering to leave, and the only thing he was doing, which was a piece of cake for a good manager (granted), was just to manage that stability while being paid millions of pounds.
Wenger is competing again, just with one season not having to sell his best players. Just imagine what could have happened with eight years of such stability. And in reverse, imagine for a moment what would have happened to Ferguson and his lovely records, if he had to deal with 8 years of instability. One thing I'm sure would have happened to Wenger is he would never have lost 8-2 to ManU, and I'm also sure that Ferguson would have abandoned his beloved ManU a long time ago.

He was talking about tactics he actually he actually gave Wenger the respect that you like, even with Arsenal's unstable teams and united's Ronaldo's and Tevez's and latter fabio and Welbeck he still had to change the way he played to deal with Wenger but when he found the formula it worked. You have to give the man respect for his analyzing skills. If he worked out every team and manager in this manner he should be regarded a genius.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Eboractos 19 November, 2013 11:30
Quote:
mallyx68
The move to a more modern larger stadium probably leaves a bigger legacy than winnng 3 titles on the bounce.

(Sm54)
A shiny new 60,000 seater stadium means literally nothing if you neglect the team that plays in it. Bari fans are sitting in just such a stadium watching Serie B football, still waiting for a "legacy" to kick in.

Proper football fans get excited about days out at Wembley, going mental in the pub when you win a big game etc. Somehow though this club has created a new breed of fan that bleats on about matchday revenue and comfy seats.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
SuperRob 19 November, 2013 12:08
I @#$%& HATE the comfy seats at the Emirates. Why are they so big? And padded? Really? It isn't a @#$%& Airline...

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Philly the kid 19 November, 2013 12:10
Bit early to decide who's legacy has done more for us, being as Arsene is still manager, isn't it?!

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
mallyx68 19 November, 2013 12:39
Quote:
Eboractos
A shiny new 60,000 seater stadium means literally nothing if you neglect the team that plays in it.

And what do you think the point of the the "shiney 60,000 seater stadium" is, untimately, set to achieve?

If we'd have stayed at Highbury our revenue streams would have been extremely limited on the £38,000 gate and an aging stadium.

Increasing the financial power of the club means you are much more likely to get excited more often about days at Wembley.

Quote:
Eboractos
Bari fans are sitting in just such a stadium watching Serie B football, still waiting for a "legacy" to kick in.

There is no danger of us becoming a Championship side is there and I'll show you Portsmouth, Birmingham, Wigan, Millwall all who enjoyed your so called "day at Wembley".

The truth is without the move and repositioning, financially, of the football club we would have slipped further and further away from all that.

What the move to the new Stadium means is that we are much more likley to stay at the top table of football for much longer and therefore be much more likely of winning silerware. We have just had to put up with a few years of pain while the transition happened.

Quote:
Eboractos
Proper football fans get excited about days out at Wembley, going mental in the pub when you win a big game etc. Somehow though this club has created a new breed of fan that bleats on about matchday revenue and comfy seats.

Actually, proper football fans support there team through thick and thin. The good times and the bad. The ones who only support them for the big days out are what's called Glory Hunters.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Eboractos 19 November, 2013 14:07
Quote:
mallyx68
And what do you think the point of the the "shiney 60,000 seater stadium" is, untimately, set to achieve?

To generate extra money, buy several world class players and win even more than we did at the old stadium.

That is what's happened since we moved isn't it Malc?

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Philly the kid 19 November, 2013 18:06
Quote:
Eboractos
Quote:
mallyx68
And what do you think the point of the the "shiney 60,000 seater stadium" is, untimately, set to achieve?

To generate extra money, buy several world class players and win even more than we did at the old stadium.

That is what's happened since we moved isn't it Malc?

Yet it doesn't count towards his legacy.
eye rolling smiley

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Eboractos 19 November, 2013 20:55
Quote:
Philly the kid
Yet it doesn't count towards his legacy.
eye rolling smiley

No Philly it doesn't because it was sarcasm. I said the opposite of what is actually true, for the sake of effect.

You see we haven't actually won any more trophies since moving. In fact there have been none. Nor have we brought in loads of top quality players. In fact we have sold better players than we have bought, while the club sits on a huge stockpile of money and plays Nicklas @#$%& Bendtner.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Philly the kid 19 November, 2013 22:03
Get a grip mana.
We bought özil in August. You think we're suddenly going to revert to type and aim for bargain basement buys now we have money?
Ignoring the obvious reasons for us not spending since we built the stadium is, at best, trolling.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Eboractos 19 November, 2013 22:40
Quote:
Philly the kid
Get a grip mana.
We bought özil in August. You think we're suddenly going to revert to type and aim for bargain basement buys now we have money?
Ignoring the obvious reasons for us not spending since we built the stadium is, at best, trolling.

We haven't just suddenly come into money, it's been accruing for quite some time now.
But go on then, what is the obvious reason for not spending and playing bendtner instead?

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Philly the kid 20 November, 2013 06:34
How are we supposed to accrue enough money to buy the top players if we spend it as we go along?
Genius!
eye rolling smiley

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
celine dion 20 November, 2013 07:04
Yes, you wouldn't catch Arsenal borrowing a large sum of money.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Padre Pio 20 November, 2013 07:27
A year ago £160 million cash in reserve



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Philly the kid 20 November, 2013 08:45
And we've started spending it with buying Ozil. Which will make it easier to buy other top players.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Eboractos 20 November, 2013 09:04
Quote:
Philly the kid
How are we supposed to accrue enough money to buy the top players if we spend it as we go along?
Genius!
eye rolling smiley

Quite clearly the club hasn't been spending it as it makes it. Argue with me if you must but it would take a complete imbecile to argue with the publicly published and independently audited accounts, which state that money has been building up over several years.

Do you fancy calling up Deloitte and telling them they've got it wrong Philly?

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
mallyx68 20 November, 2013 09:11
Quote:
Eboractos
To generate extra money, buy several world class players and win even more than we did at the old stadium.
That is what's happened since we moved isn't it Malc?

You seriously think that spending several hundred million on a new stadium wouldn't have at least an impact on out ability to buy world class players?

Now the club has been put in a better financial position and debts have largely been addressed we can NOW start looking at purchasing World Class players to help us a more sustained period of success than we did at Highbury.

Take a step back and see the big picture, you'll realise the nonsense you keep spouting.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Eboractos 20 November, 2013 09:13
Quote:
Padre Pio
A year ago £160 million cash in reserve

A certain amount of which has to be held back as security against future payments of the long term bonds, but that should still leave £120 million or so in cash and short term deposits which could be used to buy players with.

Even 3 years ago we were sitting on roughly £100 million whilst playing Almunia, Denilson and Bendtner.

Plus of course the club has plenty of assets other than pure cash which would allow it to spend money if it wanted to.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
mallyx68 20 November, 2013 09:53
Quote:
Eboractos
A certain amount of which has to be held back as security against future payments of the long term bonds, but that should still leave £120 million or so in cash and short term deposits which could be used to buy players with.
Even 3 years ago we were sitting on roughly £100 million whilst playing Almunia, Denilson and Bendtner.

Plus of course the club has plenty of assets other than pure cash which would allow it to spend money if it wanted to.

The club was not ready to go and spend that money then. Every buy you make in football is a gamble, it may not come off. There is no guarantee that Ozil will be the success some think he already is (others have had more impact on our season).

There is always a chance your expensive purchase may fail, have a long term injury etc. So you have to make sure you are able to carry that gamble if it doesn't come off.

The fact that with the new commercial deals are in place and the improved revenue they bought to the club, the board and management felt that the time is now to risk some of that money that has been built up.

Of course, 1 swallow does not make a summer and we'll need more World Class purchases to make us a true power in English football once more, so the next several transfer windows will let us know how financially powerful we truly have. I believe the recent signs have been more positive.

If it does mean we can compete with the best in the transfer market, financially, that will be Wenger's legacy.

Re: Cowardly performances at Old Trafford
Philly the kid 20 November, 2013 14:33
Quote:
Eboractos
Quote:
Philly the kid
How are we supposed to accrue enough money to buy the top players if we spend it as we go along?
Genius!
eye rolling smiley

Quite clearly the club hasn't been spending it as it makes it. Argue with me if you must but it would take a complete imbecile to argue with the publicly published and independently audited accounts, which state that money has been building up over several years.

Do you fancy calling up Deloitte and telling them they've got it wrong Philly?

Quote:
Philly the kid
How are we supposed to accrue enough money to buy the top players if we spend it as we go along?
Genius!
eye rolling smiley


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