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VAR
Discussion started by Andy Fincher , 13 August, 2019 19:39
VAR
Andy Fincher 13 August, 2019 19:39
I know there are people on here who will disagree with this and I have waited a couple of days to get my head straight but I never wanted VAR to be introduced.
According to Kevin Pullein who is a football stats. man for the Racing Post, referees and linesmen got 94% of decisions correct, I suppose we remember the ones they get wrong. When Wolves played Spurs at Molineux last season, we had a goal wrongly disallowed for offside. If that goal had been given we would have got a draw. That is the only offside I remember from that game, I can't remember all the others that they got right. If the 94% stat. is correct it is not worth changing things. The argument will be that it is better to get all decisions right but, as we saw in the World Cup and last seasons FA Cup and Caraboa Cup, VAR doesn't get all decisions correct.
We were told that it would be used to correct clear and obvious mistakes then we get Sterling ruled offside on Saturday by millimetres. How is that clear and obvious? How was Boly's handball clear and obvious?
We have that buffoon Jermain Jenas saying that it didn't take too long for the decision to be made when it actually took nearly 2 Minutes. If you are happy to wait 2 minutes to find out if a goal is going to be allowed that is your right but for me it is ridiculous and although it won't kill the game (football will continue), it will ruin it.
Because it works in other sports doesn't prove it will work in football.
I await to be called an idiot so in the meantime I am off to play darts for The Bear and Ragged Staff against The Bedwardine where, thankfully, there is no VAR.

Re: VAR
Lupinehowler 14 August, 2019 17:20
What was most apparent following that VAR decision was that the Leicester players were immediately buoyed up and proceeded to gain the initiative whereas prior to the incident they were really on the back foot. The game is being made too sterile and it’s coming to the point where fans may as well watch it on tv. as the immediacy and thrills are being substituted for cold forensic details which only serve to break up the flow of the game and punish the most innocuous of mistakes. If VAR had been used in the 1970/80s the games would have lasted for several hours.

Re: VAR
an angry wolf 14 August, 2019 23:17
I'd take the 94% with a pinch of salt as how can anyone give a figure to a borderline decision when even replayed is potentially correct/incorrect. Overall I'm in favour of VAR as I'm sick of the "big " clubs getting the decisions mainly penalties particularly at home.. I don't believe for a minute at 94% of penalties given at Old Trafford for United or for Lpool at Anfield would be given at smaller grounds with less pressure on officials. I have no issues with VAR being used for goals or sending offs as long as it doesn't come in for every decision which would transform the game into American football- what a cr*ap boring sport that is where play is stopped every few seconds.

The problem isn't VAR, it's the absurd laws in the game taking common sense and virtually any physical contact out of it meaning penalties are given too easily and balls blasted at hands from inches away are condemned as handball.

Re: VAR
Bradmore Wolf 15 August, 2019 16:45
VAR will be involved in every major decision now.

How long would the ref have looked at Aguero's goal to win the league if it had been about then.

Also it's useless for the fans inside the ground, if i've got to wait for the telly to announce a goal has been given why dont i stay at home and watch it on the telly full stop

Goals can only be half celebrated now.

Re: VAR
Ivybridge Wolf 15 August, 2019 20:55
In terms of technology supporting the game, then goal line technology in good and unequivocal. Trouble is they are applying the same level of scrutiny to marginal decisions e.g. the offsides in the W Ham v Man City match last week, and if, as I understand it, the same level of technology is not applied, what on earth are they doing with VAR to determine if a player was offside by the width of a gnats willy?! Frankly farcical.
The handball’s will be contentious to, as with us, and I see this as a problem with the new law too. I also agree about the impact when goals being reviewed. As a fan, there is no finer, more exhilarating, emotional, guttural, wonderful feeling in football than when the ball crosses the goal line or smashes the back of the net. Pure joy in an instant .... but no wait, let’s go the VAR and ruin the moment.
I am in favour of VAR overall, however thus far, there is an over zealous application of it.



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Re: VAR
chicagowolf 16 August, 2019 13:02
“Play should be continuous”

It should, yes, and I think we are all hoping that VAR can walk that narrow line between keeping the beautiful momentum of a game (Cardiff exepted) while removing the most grievous inequities.
We’ll see; but we will adjust. I think tennis has benefited from rule changes and technology over the year (I know; it is not a continuous sport like football). Hopeful

Re: VAR
Andy Fincher 16 August, 2019 20:35
They want to give advantage to the attacker then VAR is used and rules him offside by 3 millimetres and such a small margin cannot be a "clear and obvious" mistake . For Dendoncker's goal on Sunday, no Leicester player, no-one in their dug-out and no fans appealed for handball. The commentator on the stream I watched didn't mention it and neither did the commentator on Match Of The Day when I watched it later. I don't know how many people were in the stadium but let's say 30 000 and no-one saw a handball so again not a "clear and obvious" mistake.
It was supposed to clear up controversy but it's only been used for one weekend and there's been nothing but controversy.
The white line put down for free-kicks to stop the wall encroaching and to stop the sneaky free-kick taker from moving the ball forward is a great idea and goal-line technology can't be argued with as we can all see whether the ball has crossed the line or not but VAR is open to human error.
Sometimes the powers that be change things because they can, not because it benefits the game.
They need to stop trying to make football perfect, we all know it isn't. Referees and linesmen make mistakes (6%), players make mistakes and always will, managers and chairmen make mistakes. We make mistakes on here.
The ridiculous amount of time it takes for a decision to be made is, well, ridiculous and for me, VAR hasn't got one redeeming feature. I know this is wishful thinking on my part but the sooner it is confined to the nearest skip the better.
By the way, you will all be pleased to know we won the darts.

Re: VAR
an angry wolf 17 August, 2019 11:17
Where is a link to this 6% statistic Andy, I don't believe that this figure represents a fair gauge of mistakes made by officials which depends how big the club/crowd is influencing decisions

Re: VAR
Andy Fincher 17 August, 2019 12:38
Sorry mate, I can't help you there. It was the football analyst/statistician in The Racing Post who came up with it a few weeks ago in an article about VAR. I suppose we will have to either believe his figures or not.

Re: VAR
Cheshire wolf 18 August, 2019 21:03
Quote:
an angry wolf

The problem isn't VAR, it's the absurd laws in the game taking common sense and virtually any physical contact out of it meaning penalties are given too easily and balls blasted at hands from inches away are condemned as handball.

I've been thinking about this too, and if we compare it to the games of cricket and tennis, the major issue missing at the moment is the component of challenge. In tennis a player has a right to challenge a call that the ball was out for a limited number of times. In cricket the captain of the fielding side, or the batsmen have a right to challenge an umpires decision a limited number of times, in both cases so that the games don't become too stertorous to watch.

This has been missing in both our game at Leicester and yesterday's game at the Etihad. In both cases nobody - players fans or officials - appeared to suspect a hand ball had occurred. I don't know what made the VAR teams suspect it, but I think it is wrong for them to then unilaterally decide to examine it, produce the evidence and make a decision, without someone on the field of play first raising a concern.

Re: VAR
an angry wolf 19 August, 2019 12:12
A fair point Cheshire, but if as you imply we bring in a challenge rule meaning it only goes to VAR if a team objects then teams will simply object to every goal scored in the hope something is wrong with it. The argument would be to limit it to a certain number of objections per game but imagine a scenario of 15 minutes left and a goal is scored , a team challenges it as there is little time to left with nothing to lose even if nothing wrong can be seen. The challenge is overturned, goal allowed and 5 minutes later another goal is scored with a clear infringement which is objected to but the team has run out of "challenges".

Re: VAR
an angry wolf 19 August, 2019 12:20
Nearly all of the VAR relates to handball controversy .. the handball rule used to be simple, hand to ball is a foul , ball to hand isnt. City were robbed yesterday due to a ball grazing a defenders hand not moving before their disallowed winner. PSG were beaten by united due to this silly rule and a penalty given.. as the arm is part of the body it's inevitable a ball will accidentally touch it from time to time yet the punishment for something so innocuous is often a red card or penalty which is disproportionate to the offence and a complete game changer. I've watched several games particularly in Italy where a game is 0-0 and in the last ten minutes a ball is booted at a defenders arm from point blank range like a missile - a penalty is given and the entire course of the game is changed by something that is unavoidable unless you amputate defenders arms.

Re: VAR
Cheshire wolf 19 August, 2019 17:20
Quote:
an angry wolf
I've watched several games particularly in Italy where a game is 0-0 and in the last ten minutes a ball is booted at a defenders arm from point blank range like a missile - a penalty is given and the entire course of the game is changed by something that is unavoidable unless you amputate defenders arms.

And that is clearly down to poor refereeing Angry isn't it!!
In last season's home game against City we scored a goal which went in off Willy Boly's hand. It wa unseen by the officials, and it wasn't until Sky picked up on it that anybody knew. It was an accidental handball, but from that moment on Gary Neville went on about it ad infinitum until I wanted to strangle him (I know it would only have taken you half as long!!) going on about how the goal shouldn't have stood etc, and it was this sort of situation which has brought about the change in the law. The problem also is that prior to VAR a ball only had to strike a player's arm in the box and the whole team would appeal for a penalty, which was then often decided by whether the referee had seen it or not

Re: VAR
Ivybridge Wolf 20 August, 2019 13:27
Just said on the match thread - VAR is definitely no friend of the paying fan. We hadn’t a clue what was going on with the Neves review. Molineux has a new song - and it’s uncomplimentary about the process! The special moment of that superb goal was spoilt by the review and When I saw why the delay after the match, I am aghast at the level forensic review we are being subjected to. The management of the system is new - but needs serious adjustment on the basis of last night.



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Re: VAR
Sheffield WWFC 20 August, 2019 14:24
I didn't have a great view of the Neves goal having restricted view in temporary stand, but it was clear as stated that nobody on the field or stands seemed to know why the review was taking place at the time and it did spoil the moment to some extent. I quite like the idea of one of the captains or the ref asking for VAR for a specified serious error, but forensic examination of every major event in case the ref missed something doesn't seem be the high level for VAR they say has been set.

As for Boly's goal last season that was a serious error by the ref that nobody on the field spotted (except Boly himself) and that would have justified VAR intervention from the studio even if not asked for by a captain/ref, but forensic investigation of every goal/penalty/sending off in case something innocuous was missed in the lead-up is tedious.

However VAR settles down the communication with the paying fan must improve. What about the system from rugby (and hockey as well I think) where the ref has a mike which is amplified for the fans to hear what is going on and the communication between the ref and video fef.? Any reason this can't be done for us also?

Re: VAR
an angry wolf 20 August, 2019 16:19
I actually thought when I saw the lines on VAR he was marginally offside so imagine the furore had it not been given

Re: VAR
Lupinehowler 20 August, 2019 16:58
I thought the same Angry.
And I think that VAR has reduced the game to fine margins when the game was better when the ref only interfered when there was an obvious discretion.

Re: VAR
Andy Fincher 23 August, 2019 18:25
I don't want to keep boring everyone with this topic but there are a couple of points I would like to put across. The new handball rule says:- "It is an offence if a player gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then scores in the opponents goal or creates a goalscoring opportunity".
In the Man.City/Spurs match last week, the ball hit Laporte's arm. As a result did he gain possession or control? No he didn't. Therefore the second part of the rule, AND THEN scores etc, becomes irrelevant but just for the record, he definitely didn't score nor did he create a goalscoring opportunity as Jesus did that himself. Exactly the same happened the week before with Willy Boly. On both occasions the referee made the correct decision to allow the goals and then VAR came in and got it wrong.
Then we had the attempt to disallow the Neves cracker against Man.Utd and after all the lines had been drawn all over the place as if some three year old was using an Etch-a- Sketch for the first time all it did was to confirm that the referee made the right decision in the first place.

Re: VAR
an angry wolf 23 August, 2019 18:33
I dont agree with the handball rule as already stated but VAR was technically correct to rule out both goals if we are applying this law. The ball clearly struck arms of players en route to a goal.

Re: VAR
Andy Fincher 23 August, 2019 20:00
I agree with you that the ball struck the players' arm but they didn't gain control, didn't score and didn't create an opportunity as stated in the rule.

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