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Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
By TelfordSpurs
June 21 2007
Martin Jol is fast becoming one of the most respected managers in the Premier League but for some reason there are still Spurs fans, followers and supporters who are not convinced about his stewardship of the club. This particular point has vexed me and irritated me somewhat since the early months of this year when I became aware of a growing voice of unrest about Jol.

Martin Jol is fast becoming one of the most respected managers in the Premier League but for some reason there are still Spurs fans, followers and supporters who are not convinced about his stewardship of the club. This particular point has vexed me and irritated me somewhat since the early months of this year when I became aware of a growing voice of unrest about Jol. Personally I am a huge fan of Martin Jol and believe he is doing a great job at the club but seeing these ideas and arguments about Jol limitations has led me to pose the question: Can Martin Jol take Tottenham to the next stage?

Martin Jol became the manager of Spurs in November 2004 after initially being appointed assistant to Jacques Santini in June 2004. In his first season in charge Jol steered the club to 9th in the league after narrowly missing out on European qualification. He undid most of the damage done by Santini in his 13 games in charge and gave Michael Carrick his first real chance in a Spurs shirt. The following season Spurs didn’t once drop outside the top four and finished in the UEFA qualification places after missing out on Champions League qualification due to a final day defeat. This season was only marred by poor performance in the cup competitions. Last season, despite a real rollercoaster ride Martin Jol guided Spurs to a second consecutive fifth place finish and the quarter finals of the FA Cup and UEFA Cup and the semi finals of the Carling Cup. After almost three seasons in charge Jol has managed to help Spurs establish themselves as the “best of the rest”. His record is good as illustrated below:

G

W

D

L

Win %

133

63

33

37

47.36

The major plus points of Martin Jol’s time in charge include the progress made in a relatively short space of time. Considering the amount of signings Spurs have made the team has bedded down and gelled well. Before Jol took charge, under Hoddle and Santini, there can be no doubt about the fact that Spurs were in the doldrums. No progress was being made on the pitch, the football played wasn’t attractive and Spurs weren’t a team to be proud of anymore. Jol has taken the Spurs fans to his heart and seems to understand the ethos of the club. You only had to witness his rousing speech after the last game of the season against Manchester City to realise what this club means to him. Its more than a stepping stone and more than a pay cheque to him. This can only bode well for the future and progress of the club. The only dark spot on Jol’s record is the first half of the season just gone, where results weren’t great and it is to his full credit that despite the increased pressure on him, he guided Spurs out of this mini rut and into fifth place.

The second point as to why Martin Jol can take Spurs to the next stage (and by this I mean Champions League qualification and maybe higher) is that he has managed to forge a good relationship with both the board, the players and Damien Commolli. We are generally buying very good players who fit in with the club and team and are being financially prudent with it. This will allow a solid platform for progression.

Thirdly, Jol and the team seem to be learning and gaining experience rapidly. Lessons will have been learnt last season on so many fronts, in Europe the players will surely learn to be a bit more streetwise with regards referees and the opposition antics. By this I don’t mean that the players have to cheat or lower themselves to Sevilla standards but they will have the experience of a fairly lengthy European campaign behind them. Also, the team and squad will have had the experience of an almost 60 game season, a very different proposition to a 40 game season in 2005/2006. The management will have gained more ideas as to how to rotate the squad and how to get the best out of the team. This summer Jol and the management of the club will not have to go out and replace integral players who have left the club. All being well the only ins and outs at Spurs will be through Jol and Commolli’s choice and we wont have a repeat of the Carrick saga.

Next, and probably the biggest sticking point with the Jol doubters is his tactical nous and knowledge. There have admittedly been occasions such as the first leg of the Carling Cup final where Jol has made bad decisions. To Jol’s credit though he seems to have learnt from this and towards the latter half of last season he seemed to rectify these mistakes by reacting positively to the ebb and flow of the matches. Don’t forget also how he trumped Mourinho at Stamford Bridge in the FA Cup and was tactically spot on in every game in Europe (despite being bereft of almost his entire defence). Only a shocking start and individual mistakes at home to Sevilla stopped us from progressing to the semi finals. I believe there is still some work to do in this department but with a bit more luck with injuries and another year’s experience behind him, Jol can address these issues.

Finally, on the positive front, it seems that Martin Jol and Spurs have helped create a special kind of atmosphere at the club. There is an optimism and feeling that the club is going places. The stadium is packed out, the team are performing, the fans are singing and this all helps to give us that extra little bit of momentum to carry us forward. Even “the Special One” himself has singled out Spurs as a rising force in English football, and this praise doesn’t come lightly.

In summary, all the signs are pointing towards progression and success and Martin Jol has a huge part to play in this. It seems in general the players, supporters and upper echelons of the club trust and back the big Dutchman and he seems to be fine tuning his squad and his tactical nous to help push Spurs onwards and upwards.


Come on you Spurs




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Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Unofficial Spurs (IP Logged)
Date: 21/06/2007 21:51

Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: PC Bloomer (IP Logged)
Date: 21/06/2007 22:11

(Sm152) Great read.



GLORY GLORY TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR!!

pcbloomer@yahoo.co.uk

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Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: mental strength (IP Logged)
Date: 21/06/2007 22:13

Nice piece.

I have no qualms with admitting I doubted and still have doubts over Jol but as you said he has latterly overcome those issues.

I thik the possible/probable signing of Bent alongside and not instead of Berbatov highlights his awareness of where we needed to improve. In Mido we had someone who was unable in nearly any respect of either complimenting or assisting when Berbatov was either injured or had set us up nicely.

In the two games you cite as being the major times when Jol was doubted we were unable to retain our lead because we did not have the players. I think the potential arrival of Bent would correct that.

Beyond that I do believe Jol must start the season well. Not because he must win something this season but because the doubters still remain and the only way to ensure they do not resurface is to hit the ground running.

But Jol has done well and did excellently in what was a very difficult run-in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007:06:21:22:17:27 by mental strength.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: adam_08 (IP Logged)
Date: 21/06/2007 22:40

Excellent article! At last a reasoned argument stating what i believe the vast (but relatively silent!) majority of spurs fans believe.

As im sure everyone believes, i really think we can crack the top 4 this year. I like the plans to sign bent and kaboul and am obviously happy we got bale, i just think we need to sign one player who would walk straight into our 1st team like Berbatov last year. I really hope that Snijder is that man this year!

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: PC Bloomer (IP Logged)
Date: 21/06/2007 23:02

Agreed, if we can add Bent, Kaboul and that pacy exciting left winger then Bingo..... 4th or even 3rd is there for the taking.. no doubts.
Jol is the man to take us onto the next step, his man management, the way he deals with the press and with now 2 full seasons in the prem, his tactical experience and know how will push us onto the next stage.
If we acheive the holy grail next season, the one after that, in my opinion, would see us push for the title.
Where Spurs are concerned i'm always full of optimism.



GLORY GLORY TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR!!

pcbloomer@yahoo.co.uk

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n187/Bloomer_01/JolWenger.jpg

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Worm (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 05:18

Good stuff Telford.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: mrscutout (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 07:41

Great read councilor

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: SAVVA (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 07:54

I also have no problems in admitting that I feel jol can not take the club any further. There are many reasons i say this.

1. I feel jol is poor tactically and is very rigid with his formations and his substitutions, striker for striker, always the bloke who is covering on the left that is subbed.

2. He plays players out of position all the time and I think it has a terrible effect on their game, ie lennon was awful on the left imo and should never leave the left wing.

3. Allowing wide players like Routledge and zeigler to spend a season on loan and then using players like Murphy and Tainio to play on the wings instead.

4. i dont trust this guy in the transfer market, i feel that he has had lots of windows but seems to of shifted out centre mids and brought in more centre mids who are of equal ability if not worse imo may i stress

5. I think he has his favourites that play no matter how badly they perform or how long they have been out with injury, tainio and jenas for example

6. jol is not bringing through any youngsters and instead opts to play ghaly, murphy and tainio . . . .future players needed with spurs blood.


On the positive . . .

1. he has managed to get us in to europe 2 years in a row . . .well done

2. He has managed to keep hold of Ledley King

3. He signed Berbatov who was great last year ( lets hope he stays )

4. the players seem to like him


I personally feel that with all the money he has had we should have some balance by now and not be playing people like tainio and Ghaly

I hope he succeeds I really do but i just cant see us challenging top 4 this year.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: MattoftheSpurs (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 08:04

Nice one Stu.

As for your post SAVVA...So many things wrong...don't have the energy not inclination to point out where. I'll leave that dubious task to someone else.

So very, very wrong though.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: SAVVA (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 08:08

I MIGHT BE VERY WRONG BUT THE FACTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES

still no left side balance

further away this season than last

tactically poor

subs alwways the same

when we get in top 4 then tell me im wrong - last season looked better than it was because we beat so many rubbish teams in the cup and lost as soon as we played anyone good

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: MattoftheSpurs (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 08:13

SAVVA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I MIGHT BE VERY WRONG

The first sensible thing you have said in months.


>
> still no left side balance
Wrong.

>
> further away this season than last

Further away from what? Finshed in the same position to the previous year, went further in the FA Cup, went further in the League Cup, played in Europe for the first time in nearly ten years.



>
> tactically poor
In your opinion. How many coaching badges do you have. A round number will suffice if you cant remember exactly.


>
> subs alwways the same
So you think he should use different subs each game? So, you want us to have a squad of 200 players just so we can have different substitutes.


>
> when we get in top 4 then tell me im wrong - last
> season looked better than it was because we beat
> so many rubbish teams in the cup and lost as soon
> as we played anyone good

(Sm22)

Sorry Mental Strength. Your crown has been passed onto SAVVA.
(Sm22)

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: SAVVA (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 08:18

I have my UEFA B thank you very much, and have worked for a premier league club for 8 years so dont try and be a smart alec

U just said there was left side balance, stop telling me im wrong and prove me wrong . . . discuss it

Subs are poor because Jol thinks if we are losing he just takes 1 striker off and puts another on, no change of tactics etc

Sorry but u love him but he had more money than everyone except mourinho and our highlight was one win against chelsea, or are you counting all the wins against southend, cardiff, mk dons and all those little european teams as success

we are far off 4th - imo

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Plug (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 08:36

Savva, with respect. whenever someone tries to argue with you, you ignore the points and continue to rant. This whole left sided balance issue has been answered ad-nauseum over the last few weeks, and you go quiet for a day and then spout the same thing in another thread.

Take a bit of time to read through your threads, and you will stop coming out with nonsense like;

"lennon was awful on the left imo and should never leave the left wing"

What does that mean??????

Because someone defends our most succesful manager in many many years...you dismiss their point because "They Love Jol"....where is the balance in your argument???

I'm all for a debate as you requested, but your childish responses seem to ask for nothing more than sarcasm. I am trying very hard to have a reasoned debate....but eith you, it is VERY difficult.

I disagree with much of what MS says, but do you know what? He is mature and thoughtful in much of what he says...you will notice he seems to get a much more positive and friendly reaction than you....

Just for the sake of the board....please have a think about this.



http://www.bartonbydesign.co.uk/spurs.gif

My old man said be an Arsenal fan.....Now how did the rest of that song go?

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: SAVVA (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 08:43

Plug this cracks me up - clearly if u were mature u would realise that this was a typo and it meant to say he should never leave the right wing!!!!!!!!!!

U say its childish but i feel that with some of the threads u lot put on about gooners or would u want this player to play for spurs because he has played for arsenal - grow up

Mental strength makes good point and if you read his posts he does not get a friendly reaction because the likes of you make it impossible to think anything other than we are going to finish 4th and Jol is the best.

Because I dont think Jol will get us any higher does not mean im any less a fan than you but when i post i get people telling me to go and support someone else

Sorry im not as poc as some - nut i say what i think and if u dont like it then dont reply but dont you dare try to father me with a patronising thread klike that

What have u achieved in the world of football or coaching to be telling me what to think and how to write it???

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Plug (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 08:53

It was a request for you to take more care in your posting. If you cant be bothered to take the time to do it, why should anyone else take the time to read it?

Your generalisations do you little credit, and are sadly, typical of your lazy attitude.....find a post where I have said anything even close to that about Arsenal players???

What does "The likes of you" mean? You know nothing about me....what a silly thing to say.

"Sorry im not as poc as some - nut i say what i think "
(Sm8)

I wasn't patronising you Savva, you would have known if I had, I was asking you to take a step back and have a think about your posts a little bit...It would make the board far more pleasant.

Again...your last point is a massive over-reaction....Where have I told you what to think? Asking for a little bit of care in posting is a simple request for you to show a bit of respect to others on the board who want to read whatever points you are making.



http://www.bartonbydesign.co.uk/spurs.gif

My old man said be an Arsenal fan.....Now how did the rest of that song go?

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: SAVVA (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 08:55

Plug i take it on board and u can now be my adopted father?

Show me the wisdom of your ways

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Plug (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 08:59

You have just proved my point.

I ask you questions that you cannot answer without looking daft, so you deflect using poor sarcasm....

tiresome



http://www.bartonbydesign.co.uk/spurs.gif

My old man said be an Arsenal fan.....Now how did the rest of that song go?

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: MattoftheSpurs (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 09:12

Lennon was actually at his most effective during the season, in my opinion, when he played in the hole behind the front two.

And as for me loving Jol? Wrong. I think he is a decent coach end of.

Me? A smart Alec? Never? What Premiership club do you, or have you, worked for? Not being a smarty pants. Just curious. And in what capacity?

Unbalanced left side? Spurs scored 103 goals last season, 43 of them came from balls from the left wing or left side of the pitch. Does not sound unbalanced to me. I am discussing it as per your request. So tell me if over 40% of our goals have come from that side of the pitch are we unbalanced.

And finally, the substitutions. It would appear that you are letting your views cloud the facts. I will give you one example but I feel that earned knowledge is better than given knowledge so I suggest you go back and look up the rest. My example. Sheffield United at Bramall Lane. Spurs are 2-1 down with 25 minutes to play. On the pitch up front is Berbatov and Keane. So by your reckoning one of those would leave the pitch and either Mido or Defoe would have come on.
Wrong. Malbranque and Tainio went off and Defoe and Mido came on. Spurs went to a 4-2-4 formation.

Jol has changed tactics often during a game. Often he will do so as many as 3 times during a half if things are not working out. He is not afraid to substitute is big players if it's not going well. And as for who he brings on. Well, he can only bring on named subs and the bench is not limitless. I'm not saying that he has never made a mistake or a tactical change has always worked. But people, including yourself, do make mistakes. The difference is when you f*ck up at work it does not make the back pages of the newspapers or is discussed ad nauseam on messageboards by people who truly believe that they can do better.

All I'm saying is feel free to ahve opinions. As mentioned before, they are like ar$eholes in that everyone has one. But be prepared to be met with resistance from those that see the world differently.

If someone had told me during the dark days of Francis, Grosse, Hoddle, and the Pleat care taker days that an almost unknown Dutch coach would lead us from languishing between 10th and 15th place season after season and take us into Europe with consecative back to back 5th placed finishes, sign some of the best young players around, and sell out White Hart Lane on a regular basis, whilst buying and coaching one of the hottest strikers in European football I would have bitten your hand off at the elbow.

My mantra on this board has always been the same. Patience. Give Jol, Levy and Commoli the time to get things right. Wenger inherited an already successful side that was winning things yet it still took him the best part of 2 years to get things spot on. Ferguson, as we all know, took the best part of five years with alot more kudos and money than Jol has. Everyone raves about the job Moyes has done, yet he has yet to surpass Jol. Everton are as big a club as Spurs yet still they yo-yo. Newcastle with all their fans and shed loads of money which they throw at random players year after year have still yet to make any sort of impact depspite the long list of well named managers.

The only manager that has come in and done it immediately was Mourinho, and that was with the aide of a decent side built by Hoddle, Gullit, Vialli and Ranieri before him.

Jol and Levy have basically had to start to build the football club from the ground up after 10-15 years of neglect. Jol is learning. Levy is learning. I think it's about time that some supporters learnt too. Rome was not built in a day.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: SAVVA (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 09:12

I just said i take it on board Plug?????


That was not sarcasm

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Councillor Stu (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 09:20

Nice one Matt, thanks for backing my opinions up. I knew this article would cause some "healthy discussion" which is why I wrote it.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: MattoftheSpurs (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 09:20

I think my word count from my last post is longer than your actual article ;-)

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Councillor Stu (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 09:26

all adds to the fun though!

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: MattoftheSpurs (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 09:27

Absolutely.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Plug (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 11:04

Quote:
Savva
I just said i take it on board Plug?????

That was not sarcasm

Read the other two lines in your post.



http://www.bartonbydesign.co.uk/spurs.gif

My old man said be an Arsenal fan.....Now how did the rest of that song go?

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Plug (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 11:05

Matt and Telford, I think you speak for the majority of right thinking fans of both Spurs and Football as a whole. Patience is a virtue!



http://www.bartonbydesign.co.uk/spurs.gif

My old man said be an Arsenal fan.....Now how did the rest of that song go?

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: SAVVA (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 11:05

Sorry plug

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Plug (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 11:12

(Sm53)



http://www.bartonbydesign.co.uk/spurs.gif

My old man said be an Arsenal fan.....Now how did the rest of that song go?

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: MattoftheSpurs (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 11:31

Cheers Plug :-)

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: SAVVA (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 11:36

any chance u want to get out of his a**e

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: MattoftheSpurs (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 11:38

Any chance you want to stop being abusive?

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Councillor Stu (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 11:38

Cheers Plug. And Savva, matts normally the one who comments on other @#$%& and things being in them (well he likes to have a pop about my "homosexuality") so at least you two have something in common!

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: whitesocks (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 12:39

Posted by: MattoftheSpurs (IP Logged)
Date: 22 June, 2007 09:12

Nice post(Sm152)

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: lev (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 12:47

Great stuff Telford.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: glenda (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 17:44

I don't think he signed Berbatov he has half admitted it.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: MattoftheSpurs (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 17:56

Read an interview where he said he had Berbs down on a list of players that he wanted. They got Berbs and Zokora from that list.

So, no, Jol did not personally sign Berbs.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: glenda (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2007 18:11

I read a piece where Jol said "if he would have been a flop I would have said he was not my signing". In fairness to Jol he did not sign Reid.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: dixon9 (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 00:43

Jol is a class manager. He´s gradually pushing Spurs upwards and despite suffering the odd hiccup in losing key players (i.e. Carrick) he´s turning the club into a more solid side.

He´s kept fairly loyal to your attacking tradition but would need to sign cover for King this summer to make the team a bit more solid - in fact it was Kings absence which contributed to the see-saw scorelines witnessed in so many of your matches anyway.

I can see you lot in the top 4 next season - would be madness to get rid of him.




.



http://i44.tinypic.com/11r9ijr.jpg

"It is born out of hypocrisy and fundamental insecurity. There have been two kids on the block for the past 12 years. Suddenly, there is a third and that one is threatening to be more successful than the others and they don’t like it." P Kenyon.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: MattoftheSpurs (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 07:02

Chelsea supporter shames Spurs supporters by saying what they should say.

Cheers Dix, nice to see you back on this board.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: no1 gazza fan (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 09:22

Didn't we have see saw scorlines with King in the team before his injury though (Sm56)

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Paul_THFC_1981 (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 14:41

Quote:
Before Jol took charge, under Hoddle and Santini, there can be no doubt about the fact that Spurs were in the doldrums. No progress was being made on the pitch, the football played wasn’t attractive and Spurs weren’t a team to be proud of anymore

I must say, I don't agree with this bit. We may have been in the doldrums under Hoddle but the football, for the most part, was a joy to watch. And on a very tight budget. There is no need to trash our history as an argument for Jol. MJ's record stands on its own.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: MattoftheSpurs (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 14:51

Some of the football under Hoddle was ok...but some of it was a shambles.

20/10/02 Middlesbrough (H) 0-3
16/11/02 A*senal (A) 0-3
04/01/03 Southampton (fa cup A) 0-4
03/05/03 Middlesbrough (A) 1-5
11/05/03 Blackburn (H) 0-4
30/08/03 Fulham (H) 0-3
20/09/03 Southampton (H) 0-3.

Those are the worst that spring to mind. And a 10th place finish in 02/03 sums it up.

I do think that the club (no fault of the manager here) was woefully neglected since before the FA Cup win in 91. Whilst teams were planning for the future with their stadia, first team and youth set up, Spurs were being left to chance in the hope more than the expectation that things would be ok. The money invested in the club was not enough. Simple as that.
Francis, Hoddle, and Grosse were not to blame for the lack of backing, the board clearly were.

I think that the board (and not Jol) have finally shaken off the shackles of the previous boards and Jol and the supporters are benefiting from that.

Alot of credit should go to Levy and his fellow board members for the job that they have done.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Worm (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 15:00

Well said Dixon.

Amazing fans from other clubs (Newcastle, Man U, Chelsea) can see what so many on here cant see.

Ive even seen Arsenal fans praising Jol.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Paul_THFC_1981 (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 15:24

Quote:
The money invested in the club was not enough. Simple as that

Yep, I think that is the bottom line. I just don't think there is any need to trash the Hoddle period in particular as he brought some enjoyment and belief back to the club after several miserable years under both Francis and then Graham. I know we got battered a lot in the last 6 months but that wasn't down to the style of play. He was in many ways absolutely perfect in the interim until Levy had the club sorted and the cash available to really have a go at the top six. And with respect to GH, I wouldn't have wanted him spending that cash.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Worm (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 15:34

I dont think Jol has spent as much as Hoddle (Certainly not in the first full season, where we still did well).

It was more a change of philopshy and straucture that changed things - Set up nicely for Jol.

Hoddle spent loads on: Richards, Keane, Postiga.

ALong with the wages of Ziege, Poyet, Redknapp, Sheringham, Bunje

And the youngsters of

Doc, Gardner etc we didnt really hold back in the transfer market.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Paul_THFC_1981 (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 15:51

Can't really agree with that, Worm. We've spent considerably more since Hoddle left. The 15m share issue got the ball rolling for us. Not all of it was spent under Jol but little of it was wasted as is was mostly Arnesen doing the business. The only deals before that were on Defoe and Brown and that wasn't wasted cash either. I don't think the change in structure alone would have got us into the top 5. It was a combination of that and the extra cash.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007:06:25:15:52:35 by Paul_THFC_1981.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Worm (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 15:59

What about the players I listed above?

Keane £6mill, Richards £8mill, Postiga £10mill???

Arnesen, Santini and Jol came in and hardly spent any large amounts on individual players.

We changed our philosophy. Rather than buying aging stars for our first team like (Ziege, Poyet, Redknapp etc) we invested in young players.

We got loads of players in for under £1mill and only spent 'large' on a couple of players (Robbo £2.5 etc). it was the fact we tore up everything and started again from scratch, which allowed Jol to do exactly what he wanted.

Why do you think the stat that we've spent as much as Arsenal in the last few years still get banded about?

As much as I stood up for Hoddle at the time, there were aspects of his management which made it impossible to kick on from.

Firstly his failure to accept his own failures. And by that I mean persisting with a system that was impossible to continue with due to injuries (Two of his aging stars - The wing backs, Ziege and Carr, prob only played 2 games together).

Plus we had no energy in the middle with Anderton, Poyet, and Bunje and this only slightly improved when we got Redknapp (And we all know what happened there).

Hoddle obviously knew what to do but fell short in a few areas and as a result we didn't kick on. We were close I accept that.

But using the money excuse is wide of the mark in my view. And im sure, if I could be bothered, I could back it up with stats and transfer fees.

We only spent big on the likes of Berbs, once we had improved the squad as a whole.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007:06:25:16:30:39 by Worm.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Spoony (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 16:26

Agreed Worm. Our net spend under Jol is pretty low & it's been spent wisely. Even the flops under Jol haven't lost us money as we bought them cheap and often sold at a profit.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Paul_THFC_1981 (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 17:04

Wormy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What about the players I listed above?
>
> Keane £6mill, Richards £8mill, Postiga £10mill???

Postiga was 6.25m. There was another 2m due based on appearances etc but he obviously never met those! Then there was also 4m each on Kanoute and Ziege. Then a few million combined on Zamora, Bunji and Poyet. But that was it!

In total he spent 32m and we got back 6.5m for Young and Walker early on. So his net spent was about 25m. 8m a season. That is nothing really and was never going to be good enough to get us consistently into the top 6 under any circumstances. We spent more than that in the first 3 windows after Hoddle went.

> Arnesen, Santini and Jol came in and hardly spent
> any large amounts on individual players.

It depends on how large you mean. There was a 7m on Defoe, 3.5m on Davis and 8m combined on Dawson and Reid. And with regards to the team that first ended up in 5th, there was also 7m on Jenas. I agree though that some fantastic buys were made for small fees/bosmans and that was the advantage of having someone like Arnesen with his knowledge. It still however wouldn't have been possible if that extra cash hadn't been made available. It would have limited him.

In fact considering we'd spent nearly 8m on Brown and Defoe in the previous winter window, typically one whole summer of spending for us, Arnesen ordinarily wouldn't have had anything to spend in that first summer at all unless he'd sold players in the first place. I think that illustrates the difference it made!

> We changed our philiosphy. Rather than buying
> aging stars for our first team like (Ziege, Poyet,
> Redknapp etc) we invested in young players.

This is true but then we now had the cash to be able to take more risks on younger players. In addition Hoddle himself inherited an ageing squad which compounded the misery. Even after that we brought in Davids and Naybet on similar short term deals but we had the cash to get the balance right between younger and older.

> We got loads of players in for under £1mill and
> only spent 'large' on a couple of players (Robbo
> £2.5 etc). it was the fact we tore up evcerything
> and started again from scratch, which allowed Jol
> to do exactly what he wanted.
>
> Why do you think the stat that weve spent as much
> as Arsenal in the last few years still get banded
> about?

But Arsenal did what we have only did recently back between 1995-1997. People forget that they finished 12th in 1995 and only six points off the drop. We just missed out on Europe. Over that summer and the next they spend vast sums while we @#$%& about with Chrissy Armstrong and Ruel Fox, while letting Barmby, Klinsmann and Popescu go for good money. That spending made them double winners and so yes, they didn't have to spend as much anymore and got back some staggering fees for Overmars, Petit and Anelka. That then was re-invested and lead to more trophies and so on. But all that was only possible because they speculated in the first place. And this turnaround was well under way before Wenger. They ended up 6th under Rioch. In the same way, we only really started to turn it around when that extra 15m was pumped into the club.

> Firstly his failure to accept his own failures.
> And by that I mean persisting with a system that
> was impossible to continue with due to injuries
> (To his aging stars - The wing backs - Ziege and
> Carr prob only played 2 games together).
>
> Plus we had no energy in the middle with Anderton,
> Poyet, and Bunje and this only slightly improved
> when we got Redknapp (And we all know what
> happened there).
>
> Hoddle obviously knew what to do but fell short in
> a few areas and as a result we didnt kick on. We
> were close I accept that.

I completely agree with all of that. It wasn't really my point though. All I said was that he brought back some belief *and* enjoyment to the club when we hadn't had both since Venables IMO. Jol has of course added success to the equation. Something Hoddle would never have done under the same circumstances.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Worm (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 17:21

YOu forgot Keane and Richards.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Worm (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 17:23

I didnt disagree with the enjoyment comment, just that the insinuation that Hoddle only failed because he didnt have the money Jol had - Which Im sticking to (And tbh you havent convinced me otherwise)

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Paul_THFC_1981 (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 17:30

Wormy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didnt disagree with the enjoyment comment, just
> that the insinuation that Hoddle only failed
> because he didnt have the money Jol had - Which Im
> sticking to (And tbh you havent convinced me
> otherwise)

Okay no probs but that wasn't what I was saying at all. See the last line of my reply to Matt.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Paul_THFC_1981 (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 17:38

Wormy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> YOu forgot Keane and Richards.

You'd already mentioned them. I was just adding on the rest and it does all add up to around the 32m-33m mark.

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Worm (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 17:38

Nice one, I agree with most of the other things you were saying (Sorry just picked up on the bit I didnt agree with)

I personally dont think money came into it at all.

Hoddle refused to deal with the centre mid problem and persisted with the Golden Oldies. He only attempted to resolve it (Brown) when it was too late.

But I felt we were moving in the right direction with him, albeit a lot slower, and had a million times more faults than Jol (Who is up there as the best in the last 20 years).

Re: Spurs, Can Martin Jol take Spurs to the next stage
Posted by: Paul_THFC_1981 (IP Logged)
Date: 25/06/2007 17:54

The money was only important is that I really do think there was a minimum amount we needed to be spending to have any hope of getting into the top 6 and staying there. Hoddle, Jol or even Mourinho could not have done it with what had been available (Although obviously the latter two would have have done far better) However that is not to say that had Hoddle been given that minimum amount, he would have done it (and I wouldn't have wanted to find out!) All the reasons you've given illustrate why. He just didn't have the talent. The likes of Jol, Arnesen and Comolli have and have proved it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007:06:25:17:55:45 by Paul_THFC_1981.

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