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smithy43
smithy43 (IP Logged)

Micky, Palios and the mess
12 September, 2017 23:29
Just some thoughts on the MESS we are in, don't have to agree just these are my feelings.

Since Micky took charge his recruitment has been diabolical, makes Brabin look a genius. Since his appointment he has signed the following:
George Waring, James Alabi, Jack Dunn, Jay McEverly, Andy Mangan, Collins, Erico Sousa, Elliot Rokka, Adam Buxton, Ollie Norburn - with the exception of the latter 2, how pathetic are those signings!

He obviously inherited a decent squad, one that Brabin couldn't extract the best out of. Players like Cook, Tollitt, Norwood dwarf any signing that Micky has made. It's no wonder Cookie and Nors are low on confidence - I'm sorry but imagine banging in 20+ goals then seeing Waring and Alabi replace you? I certainly would be p*ssed off.
The budget boost was a calamity, no two ways about it. Just highlights Micky's incompetence.

Now theres the issue of Micky's ego. It's been well documented that he only dropped Cook for Stockton to boost his ego and how dear it has cost us. Not saying we would have gone up with Cookie as the main striker, but in those 2 games against FGR (home and Wembley) Cook was so much more suited and Micky himself would know it. Its frankly embarrassing. His ego is also the reason Dawson is frozen out.. imagine not playing one of the few creative players just because your ego is too big?


Then the Palioi. On the pitch, nothing short of disastrous. Firing Micky Adams with 2 games to go smacks of incompetence, how could he see the results, the fans reactions, the performances and think he'll keep him on for 8 more games rather than getting in someone to arrest the slide? The hiring and firing of Brabin was a joke too, a man with no experience of promotion was never going to take a club like us out of the league, then giving him a full window and sacking in September shows, to me, they're not good football people. I'm sick and tired of being fed messages about england ladies tickets, liverpool reserve tickets, some vanity futsal project, the river hill, a bleeding drone, investment in China (how sh*t are they at football - someone remind Palios!), solar campus, the gold lounge, wirral live, the list goes on! For f*cks sake, just concentrate on the FOOTBALL CLUB part of Tranmere Rovers FC, invest in the team that the club is based on, if not then don't have the cheek to moan about losing money on Wirral Live and the academy funding!! Get your head out the sand mark and nicola.

 
Higgosboots
Higgosboots (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 06:07
As I have said I spoke to an ex Rovers player who is is still in the game as a coach in summer, he said promotion is not on the cards. Some other pros and people about the game in a variety of guises, some ex Rovers, I've spoken to think the clubs a laughing stock.

 
Fiftyyearsarover
Fiftyyearsarover (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 08:03
Well said smithy43 you won't get many arguments from many of us on that one that sums it up brilliantly .the negatives are being proved right .just read the Maidenhead thread .its very disappointing to see such a club in this position and the way we are heading it could get worse

 
MESSAGES->author
2 the moon (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 08:34
Good post. Not saying I agree with it all but it's a fair opinion imo. I would question about Cook being dropped as some kind of ego boost. And were is it well documented ?. I'd say it was purely a football, and one that worked as for me we looked a better side with Cole upfront. He preferred Cole it's that simple for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/09/2017 12:09 by 2 the moon.

 
TimmySoft
TimmySoft (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 12:28
The main problem is the way the players are being coached, the only guys taking shots are norburn and norwood, nobody else appears to have the strength of character to have a go.

The problem comes if the gates continue to drop. It's only going to take 85 points to win this league this season, everyone is beating everyone. We have a good squad and although at the moment we aren't getting the results, I'm confident that a breakthrough will happen with both the coaching and the on pitch performances.

I'd like to see Palios and MM hold a press conference to outline the plan, the target and what sort of financial position we are in.

We need to bring in a centre back or give gumbs the chance, we also need a strong defensive midfielder, I actually think mceverly could do that role in front of a back 4, because coming forward he looks great.

 
smithy43
smithy43 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 12:50
For me we need a new LB, ridehalgh isn't good enough going forward and was at fault again for the goal for allowing the cross in. he's too error prone.

Need a CM that will take the game by the scruff of the neck; like Woodyard for lincoln and Noble for FGR last year. Put Hughes with the youth team he only ever goes sideways
And a winger who will run and just put the ball in the box until tollit comes back

Just a shame all the moneys in the River Hill or the futsal or got spunked on Wirral live. Thanks a bunch MR Palios!!!

 
pez
pez (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 12:58
Quote:
smithy43
For me we need a new LB, ridehalgh isn't good enough going forward and was at fault again for the goal for allowing the cross in. he's too error prone.
Need a CM that will take the game by the scruff of the neck; like Woodyard for lincoln and Noble for FGR last year. Put Hughes with the youth team he only ever goes sideways
And a winger who will run and just put the ball in the box until tollit comes back

Just a shame all the moneys in the River Hill or the futsal or got spunked on Wirral live. Thanks a bunch MR Palios!!!

The Wirral Live question was asked at the recent q&a session and the reply from Mark Palios was that it was funded separately and had no bearing whatsoever on the playing budget!

Its very easy to jump to conclusions, but the Chairman was quick to explain this and it should not be used as an excuse as why were failing on the pitch!

I agree with your other points though.

 
Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 13:18
Can't believe the owners are being slagged off for investing up front into long-term revenue-generating activities for the club. Failing to develop these income streams in the past is a big reason why we got relegated into this league in the first place, once PJ (understandably) decided he wasn't going to carry on throwing more of his own money at the team.

My only worry about MP - and it may be completely groundless - is possible interference into squad matters. The manager should be in total charge of that, including decisions on who comes in, who stays and who goes, imho.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/09/2017 13:19 by Aldo'smuzzy.

 
smithy43
smithy43 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 14:41
Gonna have to argue against the palios' pez and aldomuzzy - the playing budget was exhausted after we signed jay mceverley. This summer we got rid of mekki, turner, jennings, vaughan, iheikwe, stockton, collins, sousa, maynard and the majority of youth who played at maidstone. Thats say 14 players off the wage bill. We have replaced with just 5 (waring, alabi, mceverley, norburn, rokka).

Im sorry but a net loss of 9 players on the wage bill yet the budget has been completely wiped out? That only comes from less money given from Palios and I honestly believe its from the £200,000+ wirral live losses and all other commercial vanity projects, giving the knock on effect on the pitch.

 
Hoots Mon
Hoots Mon (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 14:44
Quote:
smithy43
Gonna have to argue against the palios' pez and aldomuzzy - the playing budget was exhausted after we signed jay mceverley. This summer we got rid of mekki, turner, jennings, vaughan, iheikwe, stockton, collins, sousa, maynard and the majority of youth who played at maidstone. Thats say 14 players off the wage bill. We have replaced with just 5 (waring, alabi, mceverley, norburn, rokka).
Im sorry but a net loss of 9 players on the wage bill yet the budget has been completely wiped out? That only comes from less money given from Palios and I honestly believe its from the £200,000+ wirral live losses and all other commercial vanity projects, giving the knock on effect on the pitch.

Very few of those who left will have been on much.

 
pez
pez (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 14:47
Quote:
smithy43
Gonna have to argue against the palios' pez and aldomuzzy - the playing budget was exhausted after we signed jay mceverley. This summer we got rid of mekki, turner, jennings, vaughan, iheikwe, stockton, collins, sousa, maynard and the majority of youth who played at maidstone. Thats say 14 players off the wage bill. We have replaced with just 5 (waring, alabi, mceverley, norburn, rokka).
Im sorry but a net loss of 9 players on the wage bill yet the budget has been completely wiped out? That only comes from less money given from Palios and I honestly believe its from the £200,000+ wirral live losses and all other commercial vanity projects, giving the knock on effect on the pitch.


My bad! So by your reckoning, Mark Palios stood in a room full of Season Ticket Holders and Local Media and lied like cheap watch??

 
smithy43
smithy43 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 14:53
So you think hed really stand there, and say "yeah sorry lads the budgets gone down by a quarter of a million just because i wasnt able to organise wirral live properly"? Its his incentive to sweet talk those very season ticket holders as theyre his main source of income..

Hoots Man - stockton jennings iheikwe would have still all been on league 1/2 wages from their contracts, havent exactly replaced them with neymar/mbappe. New players will be on conference wages, if not why then micky must explain why mceverely is on a league 2 wage.

 
aktrfc
aktrfc (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 15:16
Just pasted below from the maidenhead thread. i posted on there before i saw this one.

is our issue not the lack of money made available by MP. we were not good enough to go up last season and it was clear over the summer that no cash was available. we did a lot more clearing out than recruiting. it appears that the writting was on the wall, well before the season started. at the begining of last season, MP made it clear that it was the make or break season and it looks like it broke us. has micky just hit a brick wall, as im sure an injection of cash would work wonders for him.

back to the old, how pulls the strings when yuou have an ex player as chairman!

 
Higgosboots
Higgosboots (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 15:34
If you want the actual answer instead of guessing then read the clubs accounts for tax year 2016, and they don't take account of the lost revenue of 200k for Wirral live, which will be due i the 2018 filing period, extra curricular income is barely up.

The overalls appear to be down as follows (rounded up or down), Cash down 91 % Net worth down 33% assetts down 22%, liabilities up 186% to 3.7 mil

Link to abreviated version here, [companycheck.co.uk]

Link to full report filed at companies house here (you must download the PDF read at your leisure) [beta.companieshouse.gov.uk]

Full report indicates that if we got promoted the extra income would sustain a top 3rd budget, other issues covered are reduction in academy grant of 50% and loss of parachute payment,

Wirral live and a China appear to be the tail pinned on the donkey to maximise this years budget, we all know Live lost 200k so there is your answer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/09/2017 15:35 by Higgosboots.

 
MESSAGES->author
Matt34 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
13 September, 2017 23:43
Quote:
smithy43
New players will be on conference wages, if not why then micky must explain why mceverely is on a league 2 wage.

Speculation as you almost certainly know not of what new players get paid, in relation to someone like McEverley and Mellon and Palios do not have to justify what an individual player gets paid as it's nobodies business but their own.

As for some of the players mentioned, Mangan played well under Brabin initially and for Mellon at Fleetwood, so there's your answer and Waring hasn't played enough to be written off.

Sousa didn't get that much game time and Rokka is still adjusting to full time football and has not played yet, so writing him off is unfair and as for Dunn, not many people were ragging on him when he was on loan, so why would Mellon say, great spell on loan lad and the general feeling from the public seems to be you're alright, but you're not good enough, when he could tell the guy was good enough.

The problem here is it looks like you're judging Mellon's signings after they've played for Tranmere, or in one or two cases little to no game time, but Mellon is not a prophet, no manager is, so he can't look 4-5 months into the future and say Oh no player X won't have done this that or the other after 10 games, so I won't sign him.

Moore had this in the past, when someone said on here that he should apologise for signing Corry, McGinty Amoo etc because of how they played and I said then and will say now. No manager should apologise for signing players, or have to justify how the player trains or plays for them.

Some signings work out and some don't, but I would not expect Mellon at any point to say I'm sorry for trying to sign players I genuinely thought would be good enough, if one or two showed obvious signs of consistent insufficiency.



Then I ate his Liver.......... with some baked beans and a can of coke.

 
smithy43
smithy43 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 00:53
Fair point, but managers should be judged solely on the results and the transfers they make are the biggest influence on the results. None of his signings have set the world alight, and 10 games in weve seen enough to know the majority hes brought in arent good enough. Jack Dunn has been sh*te this season, he had 1 good game last season away at eastleigh. Mangan misses too many chances and is getting on, again not good enough.

We need to stop this excuse culture we have going on, lets be frank here Sousa wasnt strong or technical enough and it took 5 mins to see that, lack of game time shouldnt be an excuse for another poor micky signing.

 
dafydd1939
dafydd1939 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 03:52
I was ashamed the way we played against Barrow . All the other posts have the right answer and the right reasons for it get rid of of Mickey Melon and the older men in the side. I have never seen such a lazy display at any other Tranmere match this season . I was heartened to see those recruited during the preseason but something has gone wrong and is it the way they are being coached, chosen for the team or is it the Manager who is badly directing and selecting the team? MP please do not let this attitude go on any longer.

 
the kav
the kav (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 11:41
Quote:
pez
Quote:
smithy43
Gonna have to argue against the palios' pez and aldomuzzy - the playing budget was exhausted after we signed jay mceverley. This summer we got rid of mekki, turner, jennings, vaughan, iheikwe, stockton, collins, sousa, maynard and the majority of youth who played at maidstone. Thats say 14 players off the wage bill. We have replaced with just 5 (waring, alabi, mceverley, norburn, rokka).
Im sorry but a net loss of 9 players on the wage bill yet the budget has been completely wiped out? That only comes from less money given from Palios and I honestly believe its from the £200,000+ wirral live losses and all other commercial vanity projects, giving the knock on effect on the pitch.


My bad! So by your reckoning, Mark Palios stood in a room full of Season Ticket Holders and Local Media and lied like cheap watch??

He wouldnt be the first md of a large company to lie to his customers.... ive not met one md who is open with his staff tbh

 
ADD
ADD (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 11:51
Quote:
the kav
Quote:
pez
Quote:
smithy43
Gonna have to argue against the palios' pez and aldomuzzy - the playing budget was exhausted after we signed jay mceverley. This summer we got rid of mekki, turner, jennings, vaughan, iheikwe, stockton, collins, sousa, maynard and the majority of youth who played at maidstone. Thats say 14 players off the wage bill. We have replaced with just 5 (waring, alabi, mceverley, norburn, rokka).
Im sorry but a net loss of 9 players on the wage bill yet the budget has been completely wiped out? That only comes from less money given from Palios and I honestly believe its from the £200,000+ wirral live losses and all other commercial vanity projects, giving the knock on effect on the pitch.


My bad! So by your reckoning, Mark Palios stood in a room full of Season Ticket Holders and Local Media and lied like cheap watch??

He wouldnt be the first md of a large company to lie to his customers.... ive not met one md who is open with his staff tbh
Or of course the third explanation might well be MP could have been 100% truthful and said it had no bearing on the playing budget because the playing budget was set at whatever figure it is and the Wirral Live event was intended to generate revenue for the limited company that is TRFC Ltd. to be spent/ paid as dividends as MP decided but instead it produced a loss.

 
Hoots Mon
Hoots Mon (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 12:08
Quote:
ADD
Quote:
the kav
Quote:
pez
Quote:
smithy43
Gonna have to argue against the palios' pez and aldomuzzy - the playing budget was exhausted after we signed jay mceverley. This summer we got rid of mekki, turner, jennings, vaughan, iheikwe, stockton, collins, sousa, maynard and the majority of youth who played at maidstone. Thats say 14 players off the wage bill. We have replaced with just 5 (waring, alabi, mceverley, norburn, rokka).
Im sorry but a net loss of 9 players on the wage bill yet the budget has been completely wiped out? That only comes from less money given from Palios and I honestly believe its from the £200,000+ wirral live losses and all other commercial vanity projects, giving the knock on effect on the pitch.


My bad! So by your reckoning, Mark Palios stood in a room full of Season Ticket Holders and Local Media and lied like cheap watch??

He wouldnt be the first md of a large company to lie to his customers.... ive not met one md who is open with his staff tbh
Or of course the third explanation might well be MP could have been 100% truthful and said it had no bearing on the playing budget because the playing budget was set at whatever figure it is and the Wirral Live event was intended to generate revenue for the limited company that is TRFC Ltd. to be spent/ paid as dividends as MP decided but instead it produced a loss.

+1

 
Higgosboots
Higgosboots (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 19:19
Quote:
Hoots Mon
Quote:
ADD
Quote:
the kav
Quote:
pez
Quote:
smithy43
Gonna have to argue against the palios' pez and aldomuzzy - the playing budget was exhausted after we signed jay mceverley. This summer we got rid of mekki, turner, jennings, vaughan, iheikwe, stockton, collins, sousa, maynard and the majority of youth who played at maidstone. Thats say 14 players off the wage bill. We have replaced with just 5 (waring, alabi, mceverley, norburn, rokka).
Im sorry but a net loss of 9 players on the wage bill yet the budget has been completely wiped out? That only comes from less money given from Palios and I honestly believe its from the £200,000+ wirral live losses and all other commercial vanity projects, giving the knock on effect on the pitch.


My bad! So by your reckoning, Mark Palios stood in a room full of Season Ticket Holders and Local Media and lied like cheap watch??

He wouldnt be the first md of a large company to lie to his customers.... ive not met one md who is open with his staff tbh
Or of course the third explanation might well be MP could have been 100% truthful and said it had no bearing on the playing budget because the playing budget was set at whatever figure it is and the Wirral Live event was intended to generate revenue for the limited company that is TRFC Ltd. to be spent/ paid as dividends as MP decided but instead it produced a loss.

+1

Well things have obviously changed then, here is an extract from the filed accounts,

This results in a further £0.5 million reduction in funding and highlights the need to continue the focus on improving non match-day revenues to avoid reducing the funds available for the playing budget and to ensure we can continue to invest in the development of players in our academy. As a consequence two major new revenue-generating projects were started in Autumn of 2016, namely the investment in China and also the investment in Wirral Live which is a series of 3 concerts to be held at Prenton Park in May 2017.

I think that says it all really.

 
Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 19:43
It doesn't quite say it all.

We apparently took a £200k hit on something that was supposed to help maintain the playing budget. That does not automatically mean the playing budget is hit by £200k. Iirc, the executive responsible for the concert left the club as a result of its failure, and hasn't been replaced. Think I also read somewhere that other staff cutbacks were made, not on the footballing side. If the chairman has subsequently said that the playing budget this season hasn't suffered because of the loss on the concert then I believe him, because there's nothing (and certainly nothing in the latest filed accounts) to suggest he's not telling the truth.

 
omd white
OMD WHITE (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 20:21
How much did we make of the playoff games and then Wembley final ? Surely that money would of been put towards this season .

 
Higgosboots
Higgosboots (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 20:22
Quote:
Aldo'smuzzy
It doesn't quite say it all.
We apparently took a £200k hit on something that was supposed to help maintain the playing budget. That does not automatically mean the playing budget is hit by £200k. Iirc, the executive responsible for the concert left the club as a result of its failure, and hasn't been replaced. Think I also read somewhere that other staff cutbacks were made, not on the footballing side. If the chairman has subsequently said that the playing budget this season hasn't suffered because of the loss on the concert then I believe him, because there's nothing (and certainly nothing in the latest filed accounts) to suggest he's not telling the truth.

And the loss of .5 mil, parachute payment, it's not a straight loss of 200k, it's a 200k loss that compounds the loss of other income. Robbing Peter to pay Paul doesn't negate that loss, let's be honest who are the biggest earners in the club, the players, we can sack a few cleaning ladies the odd exec and a car park attendant but all that does is maybe negate the 200k, which is actually a loss of 200k investment that was supposed to generate an amount of profit, so potentially a loss of 300k, compounded by .5 mil, plus intrest due on that loss or the loss of interest on that money if it were in the cash flow, plus redundancy packages.

Reality is we don't know but I know that the investment was exactly that an investment, we now have to earn 200k just to be back to where we where, Ultimatley that's a significant percentage of turnover looking at the books.

 
Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 20:38
It's a bad hit to the club as a whole, no doubt about it, and to maintain the playing budget he probably will have had to rob Peter to pay Paul. But if he says he has maintained the playing budget, I see no reason to doubt him.

 
DevonExile
DevonExile (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 20:48
Whatever the truth of the financial situation, we have by the standards of this league a massive squad and our pay budget was broadly the same as last year.A level most managers at this level would envy.Our players are full time most in the national are part time.It is not finances that have put us in this situation it is poor use of the resources available.The signings this summer have been poor. Offering a contract to Dawson and Wallace were both signings that from the start promised a poor return.
There may be emerging problems in terms of finances and it may be that we cannot buy our way out of the mess but the immediate situation on the field is down to management.In recent weeks the constant merry go round of changes seem to have no pattern and suggest that MM has lost his way.It is a sad situation. When we first went down there was an optimism about the general direction of the club which has sustained gates. This is rapidly evaporating a no amount of keep the faith posters is going to stem that. Firing managers should be a last resort but another month of this and MP may have little choice if he is not to see that hope for the future totally extinguished.That is the the pressure of managing a club were expectation will rightly be higher than at clubs like Sutton,Guisley or Boreham Wood and why almost certainly MM is paid far more than their managers

 
Higgy and Yozzer
Higgy and Yozzer (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 22:57
What's all this bollocks about Rokka taking time to adjust to full time football about! We got beat by a team of part time footballers this week - I wonder how many of them are still adjusting!

Rokka had a great season last year and looked good pre season so should have been given a go as a creative winger in the side - but no MM wanted to play with no width so hasn't played him so his confidence is probably shot and all we get fed Is bolllicks about him taking time to adapt to full time footballl!

He's not a 4 year old going from a few days st nursery to big school - stop treating us like fools. Sousa who cam in last yea was another flair player who looked good when given a chance but then just got dumped.

 
MESSAGES->author
Matt34 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
14 September, 2017 23:08
Quote:
DevonExile
That is the the pressure of managing a club were expectation will rightly be higher than at clubs like Sutton,Guisley or Boreham Wood and why almost certainly MM is paid far more than their managers

I feel the main reason Mellon is paid more than most NL managers, is because the owners want the best manager they can get relative to a realistic spend, otherwise they could quite easily spend £20,000 rather than the alleged £100,000 and give the cheaper manager the £80,000 saved on salary for budget, so he could have another £1,000 a week for wages and the remaining £30,000 for transfers.

However you are then looking to poach a manager from at least NLN and NLS or equivalent level and possibly lower level, with a bit of something about them, when £100,000 might get you someone who has potentially played in the league and maybe managed in it and had promotion, so they have some decent league contacts and experience of training with pros before.

The former might be true of some non-league managers, who will have played in the league I:E Dave Challinor, but not experience of managing pro's and in his case only recent experience of doing that, but they were not pro when he started with them.

By the way I didn't mention him so people could go hey get rid of Mellon and get him.



Then I ate his Liver.......... with some baked beans and a can of coke.

 
Higgosboots
Higgosboots (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 05:56
Quote:
Higgy and Yozzer
What's all this bollocks about Rokka taking time to adjust to full time football about! We got beat by a team of part time footballers this week - I wonder how many of them are still adjusting!
Rokka had a great season last year and looked good pre season so should have been given a go as a creative winger in the side - but no MM wanted to play with no width so hasn't played him so his confidence is probably shot and all we get fed Is bolllicks about him taking time to adapt to full time footballl!

He's not a 4 year old going from a few days st nursery to big school - stop treating us like fools. Sousa who cam in last yea was another flair player who looked good when given a chance but then just got dumped.

Plus why gamble on the unknown I.e Rokka when we had Mekki, cash flow??

 
MESSAGES->author
Doogie'sGhost (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 08:27
The business model is sound, but it takes investment and time to come to fruition. Work out what the core skills are within the organisation and adapt them to new markets. So what are the core skills needed to run a successful football club?

Football, obviously - so we're leading the charge for futsal as well.
Coaching - there's China, but also things like the gyms at PP & Solar Campus.
Event mgmt - concerts and comedy nights.
Hospitality and functions - catering and hotel.

Now throw in expansion of existing activities which had been left to rot and there's a lot of scope to grow a business, all using the Tranmere brand, which has a significant value in itself. You can't do it all at once and some things will take time to work, but the ideas are very sound. Exactly the sort of thing I would have looked at if I'd been in position to buy the club after a serious lottery win.

There is one area they haven't looked at yet, that's redeveloping the main stand incorporating things like retail outlets and office space. Bet they have it in mind though.

 
WWStandsure
WWStandsure (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 09:37
The owners (M & N.P), should NOT be mentioned in these communications, they employed a person who they thought capable of putting together a promotion winning side - that's down to MM and staff (including players). As previous comments the 'new signings - and some retained' I say indeed are questionable, hence why comments relating to 'mates' older (supposedly), experienced players etc, etc, appear. The squad put together is not gelling, the play is too slow from the back for starters. No negative comments should be necessary, but they are. simple solution change players and formations (play a bloody winger with speed and ability), or it will be your neck Mr M. The players you put your faith into are not giving you the return you envisaged. You signed them, you take the flack, sorry but that's the reality of football. I wonder if Mr Challinor is in the frame yet????

 
pez
pez (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 09:44
Challinor is not ready and is not really any better despite probably having more money at his disposal at Fylde.

He has done well getting them up to the N.L, but even he looks average at this level.

He is also about 4 months into a 2 year deal also, so with our finances being questioned and having to pay Micky off to leave, I doubt he would even be considered?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/09/2017 09:48 by pez.

 
smithy43
smithy43 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 11:50
All this talk of investment.. just another thought but palios should surely know the returns of getting back in the football league, the wirral live money could easily have been instead invested on 2 or 3 top quality players, who will get us into the league where the tv money and money for the academy is at.
Palios talks of a "top 3rd budget" well mr palios that means theres scope for 7 or 8 other teams to have a bigger or the same budget at us, sutton are top cause they've spent on the first team, not on a hotel in downtown sutton (even if it is because of cup run).

every pound invested in the first team yields greater benefits if we were to go up than every pound on futsal or the fawlty hill could ever do.

Yes its a gamble well so was bleeding wirral live and look how much that effected us financially

 
Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 12:05
sutton are top cause they've spent on the first team, not on a hotel in downtown sutton (even if it is because of cup run).

every pound invested in the first team yields greater benefits if we were to go up than every pound on futsal or the fawlty hill could ever do.

Yes its a gamble well so was bleeding wirral live and look how much that effected us financially[/quote]

Tranmere haven't spent anything on a hotel either. The Riverhill is the Palios' own personal venture, the profits from which will go back into the club.

The gamble you suggest we take is a gamble of the club's future and arguably its very existence - fail and we'd have no other income streams to fall back on and, as we experienced in similar circumstances under PJ, negligible hope of ever going up....but this time we'd be stuck two divisions lower.

You've already slagged the manager off countless times so would you trust him to gamble the club's future on recruiting the players you think we need with all this money you'd divert into the first team?

 
aktrfc
aktrfc (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 12:39
[quote Aldo'smuzzy]sutton are top cause they've spent on the first team, not on a hotel in downtown sutton (even if it is because of cup run).

every pound invested in the first team yields greater benefits if we were to go up than every pound on futsal or the fawlty hill could ever do.

Yes its a gamble well so was bleeding wirral live and look how much that effected us financially[/quote]

Tranmere haven't spent anything on a hotel either. The Riverhill is the Palios' own personal venture, the profits from which will go back into the club.

The gamble you suggest we take is a gamble of the club's future and arguably its very existence - fail and we'd have no other income streams to fall back on and, as we experienced in similar circumstances under PJ, negligible hope of ever going up....but this time we'd be stuck two divisions lower.

You've already slagged the manager off countless times so would you trust him to gamble the club's future on recruiting the players you think we need with all this money you'd divert into the first team?[/quote]

if we go down this season, nothing will save us. the gamble has got to be worth it, as at this point we have nothing to lose.

 
smithy43
smithy43 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 12:51
Aldos Muzzy I'm sorry that I'm not content seeing my team in 16th place in the NATIONAL LEAGUE, playing the worst football I've ever witnessed and going absolutely nowhere with the current set up. Im sorry that I'm not happy with losing to brickies and candle stick makers every other week, I'm just trying to think how we can get out of this.

The only way its gonna change is if we invest into the team, didnt realise we've become 'Non Match Day Revenue FC' ..

With the budget boost I could have put £20 in, or £20 on a 4/1 bet and given the profits to the boost if it won, if not then no £20 to the boost. The same is essentially happening with the palios', investing their money in other riskier assets with no guaranteed return, they lost the wirral live bet and the budget is suffering the consequences.

 
Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 13:21
None of us is content with the current on-field situation. But the premise of much of your argument is factually incorrect. The budget has not suffered. The club is trying to become sustainable and maximise its revenue so that we don't have to rely on the one last throw of the dice that you're effectively suggesting. Our opponents are, by and large, full time professionals and not brickies and candlestick makers, and many of those who are now part time have a background with professional clubs - if our players went into matches believing what you do then they'd be accused (rightly) of underestimating the opposition.

If we fail to get promotion this season I want us to still have a reasonably healthy club that has a fighting chance of coming again next season. The downside risk of what you're suggesting doesn't bear thinking about. To use your example, there are many people, and many examples of clubs in non-league, who gambled their last £20 on the 4/1 shot that didn't come in. We all want promotion but, if we don't get it, I don't want us to end up like a York, Stockport, Rushden & Diamonds, Scarborough etc etc.

I agree things need to change soon - whether that be tactics, players or maybe even the manager at some point. But the business model the club following looks sound enough, and it certainly isn't causing the problems we're currently experiencing on the pitch.

 
coltran
coltran (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 15:59
Quote:
Aldo'smuzzy
None of us is content with the current on-field situation. But the premise of much of your argument is factually incorrect. The budget has not suffered. The club is trying to become sustainable and maximise its revenue so that we don't have to rely on the one last throw of the dice that you're effectively suggesting. Our opponents are, by and large, full time professionals and not brickies and candlestick makers, and many of those who are now part time have a background with professional clubs - if our players went into matches believing what you do then they'd be accused (rightly) of underestimating the opposition.
If we fail to get promotion this season I want us to still have a reasonably healthy club that has a fighting chance of coming again next season. The downside risk of what you're suggesting doesn't bear thinking about. To use your example, there are many people, and many examples of clubs in non-league, who gambled their last £20 on the 4/1 shot that didn't come in. We all want promotion but, if we don't get it, I don't want us to end up like a York, Stockport, Rushden & Diamonds, Scarborough etc etc.

I agree things need to change soon - whether that be tactics, players or maybe even the manager at some point. But the business model the club following looks sound enough, and it certainly isn't causing the problems we're currently experiencing on the pitch.

Excellent, common sense reply.

 
smithy43
smithy43 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 16:11
The budget clearly has suffered though, we are a net 9 players down, we havent paid a penny yet (even for alabi) and still we have no more funds available. Unless waring is on 10k a week or whatever the budget has decreased from last season.. probably due to off the field losses.

 
DevonExile
DevonExile (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 16:27
It is neither the size of the squad or the budget that is the problem.It is the quality of the squad due to poor recruitment.Even during our good form of last year we struggled against promotion contenders.The decline in quality now means that we are struggling against teams likely to be mid table at best.Tollitts return will add some quality in due course but without improvement elsewhere on the field it is unlikely to transform our season.
MP has been really good for this club and I feel for him if it turns out that three managers on his watch have been found wanting.
Sacking managers is an easy demand but recruiting better is very much a matter of chance

 
MESSAGES->author
Phil65 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 18:44
Quote:
Aldo'smuzzy
None of us is content with the current on-field situation. But the premise of much of your argument is factually incorrect. The budget has not suffered. The club is trying to become sustainable and maximise its revenue so that we don't have to rely on the one last throw of the dice that you're effectively suggesting. Our opponents are, by and large, full time professionals and not brickies and candlestick makers, and many of those who are now part time have a background with professional clubs - if our players went into matches believing what you do then they'd be accused (rightly) of underestimating the opposition.
If we fail to get promotion this season I want us to still have a reasonably healthy club that has a fighting chance of coming again next season. The downside risk of what you're suggesting doesn't bear thinking about. To use your example, there are many people, and many examples of clubs in non-league, who gambled their last £20 on the 4/1 shot that didn't come in. We all want promotion but, if we don't get it, I don't want us to end up like a York, Stockport, Rushden & Diamonds, Scarborough etc etc.

I agree things need to change soon - whether that be tactics, players or maybe even the manager at some point. But the business model the club following looks sound enough, and it certainly isn't causing the problems we're currently experiencing on the pitch.

Before Tuesday's defeat, there was a new belief, not for the first time this season. One game later and you're stating, as fact, that we're all discontent. Evidence that the football is hugely significant and does matter to us all. I just don't think we should under-estimate the reality of why we, or at least some of us, turn up each week. Fully understand and appreciate the need for viability; however, as you correctly quote the financial situation is not causing the problems we're currently experiencing, conversely there's no guarantee of success on the football field even with a healthy financial situation. Like it or not, we're becoming the butt of many a joke amongst other supporters purely due to our current league status. In my opinion, being risk averse on the football pitch seems to be an issue that's not necessarily reflected on the commercial side.

 
Hoots Mon
Hoots Mon (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 18:55
Quote:
Phil65
Quote:
Aldo'smuzzy
None of us is content with the current on-field situation. But the premise of much of your argument is factually incorrect. The budget has not suffered. The club is trying to become sustainable and maximise its revenue so that we don't have to rely on the one last throw of the dice that you're effectively suggesting. Our opponents are, by and large, full time professionals and not brickies and candlestick makers, and many of those who are now part time have a background with professional clubs - if our players went into matches believing what you do then they'd be accused (rightly) of underestimating the opposition.
If we fail to get promotion this season I want us to still have a reasonably healthy club that has a fighting chance of coming again next season. The downside risk of what you're suggesting doesn't bear thinking about. To use your example, there are many people, and many examples of clubs in non-league, who gambled their last £20 on the 4/1 shot that didn't come in. We all want promotion but, if we don't get it, I don't want us to end up like a York, Stockport, Rushden & Diamonds, Scarborough etc etc.

I agree things need to change soon - whether that be tactics, players or maybe even the manager at some point. But the business model the club following looks sound enough, and it certainly isn't causing the problems we're currently experiencing on the pitch.

Before Tuesday's defeat, there was a new belief, not for the first time this season. One game later and you're stating, as fact, that we're all discontent. Evidence that the football is hugely significant and does matter to us all. I just don't think we should under-estimate the reality of why we, or at least some of us, turn up each week. Fully understand and appreciate the need for viability; however, as you correctly quote the financial situation is not causing the problems we're currently experiencing, conversely there's no guarantee of success on the football field even with a healthy financial situation. Like it or not, we're becoming the butt of many a joke amongst other supporters purely due to our current league status. In my opinion, being risk averse on the football pitch seems to be an issue that's not necessarily reflected on the commercial side.

+1

 
Higgosboots
Higgosboots (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 19:19
Quote:
smithy43
Aldos Muzzy I'm sorry that I'm not content seeing my team in 16th place in the NATIONAL LEAGUE, playing the worst football I've ever witnessed and going absolutely nowhere with the current set up. Im sorry that I'm not happy with losing to brickies and candle stick makers every other week, I'm just trying to think how we can get out of this.
The only way its gonna change is if we invest into the team, didnt realise we've become 'Non Match Day Revenue FC' ..

With the budget boost I could have put £20 in, or £20 on a 4/1 bet and given the profits to the boost if it won, if not then no £20 to the boost. The same is essentially happening with the palios', investing their money in other riskier assets with no guaranteed return, they lost the wirral live bet and the budget is suffering the consequences.

There's no point bashing that drum, no one will have any critisiscm levelled at the Paliai, you know with all that football club management experience they have. For what it's worth I agree with you. Any monies invested should without doubt have gone into the first team, Cheltenham understood the risk required to make the jump back and the risks in not getting out.
Non match day revenue is great, but it's akin to point of sale till items or add ons, a sofa shop is struggling, it's struggling because it's sofas are poor quality, come with no warranty they aren't expensive but they are over priced for what they are. Weekly they sell a few but the shop is sold on and a new owner comes in and identifies that no point of sale adds on are being sold, he pushes them and profits go up, but the core product the sofa haven't improved, there still crap, he phones the factory and the manager advises him that the sofas will improve, they haven't changed anything in design or manufacture but never the less the sofas will come good. New owner is jubilant and decides to invest some of his own money in a coffee shop outside, with a view to selling coffees to the sofa shop customers, he will plough the profits back into sofa shop to assist with paying staff, because shop revenue is still down and is still struggling, a few people are buying point of sale so income has gone up, but the sofa shop still has a poor rep, so footfall is still low, after an initial upsurge in point of sale it profit levels off as the "peak" sales have been achieved When owner invested in point of sale he decided to do so because it was cheap and easy, he had been offered some new sofas from a new factory of better quality with a larger warranty at a slightly higher price per unit but with a larger profit margin if he sold them on. Had he purchased these sofas the sales would have seen the business come good improving its reputation and seeing a rise in footfall meaning that he would at that point have been able to start investing in point of sale to maximise profits.

 
Hoots Mon
Hoots Mon (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 19:24
Quote:
Higgosboots
Quote:
smithy43
Aldos Muzzy I'm sorry that I'm not content seeing my team in 16th place in the NATIONAL LEAGUE, playing the worst football I've ever witnessed and going absolutely nowhere with the current set up. Im sorry that I'm not happy with losing to brickies and candle stick makers every other week, I'm just trying to think how we can get out of this.
The only way its gonna change is if we invest into the team, didnt realise we've become 'Non Match Day Revenue FC' ..

With the budget boost I could have put £20 in, or £20 on a 4/1 bet and given the profits to the boost if it won, if not then no £20 to the boost. The same is essentially happening with the palios', investing their money in other riskier assets with no guaranteed return, they lost the wirral live bet and the budget is suffering the consequences.

There's no point bashing that drum, no one will have any critisiscm levelled at the Paliai, you know with all that football club management experience they have. For what it's worth I agree with you. Any monies invested should without doubt have gone into the first team, Cheltenham understood the risk required to make the jump back and the risks in not getting out.
Non match day revenue is great, but it's akin to point of sale till items or add ons, a sofa shop is struggling, it's struggling because it's sofas are poor quality, come with no warranty they aren't expensive but they are over priced for what they are. Weekly they sell a few but the shop is sold on and a new owner comes in and identifies that no point of sale adds on are being sold, he pushes them and profits go up, but the core product the sofa haven't improved, there still crap, he phones the factory and the manager advises him that the sofas will improve, they haven't changed anything in design or manufacture but never the less the sofas will come good. New owner is jubilant and decides to invest some of his own money in a coffee shop outside, with a view to selling coffees to the sofa shop customers, he will plough the profits back into sofa shop to assist with paying staff, because shop revenue is still down and is still struggling, a few people are buying point of sale so income has gone up, but the sofa shop still has a poor rep, so footfall is still low, after an initial upsurge in point of sale it profit levels off as the "peak" sales have been achieved When owner invested in point of sale he decided to do so because it was cheap and easy, he had been offered some new sofas from a new factory of better quality with a larger warranty at a slightly higher price per unit but with a larger profit margin if he sold them on. Had he purchased these sofas the sales would have seen the business come good improving its reputation and seeing a rise in footfall meaning that he would at that point have been able to start investing in point of sale to maximise profits.

Spoken like a true DFS salesman

What do you need to know before buying a sofa? Let our salespeople take you through the process: [ow.ly]

 
Loyden1
Loyden1 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 19:30
That's cushioned the blow.mp is a CHAIRMAN after all.

 
Fiftyyearsarover
Fiftyyearsarover (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 19:40
Our demise is nothing to do with the absolutely imperative commercial work MP is involved in to make us self sufficient it's to do with the manager who for some reason has lost the plot .cant pick his best team ,lack of sound tactics ,no plan B when things need changing .we are to easy to fathom out because we play the same every week .nobody are scared of us because they know we are garbage and there for the taking .Shrewsbury were ready to ditch him so it was good timing as far as Mellon was concerned .and some of there supporters came on here and predicted this would happen .come Christmas MP could be be awoken BY 3 figures wrapped in chains ,the ghosts of managers past

 
Fiftyyearsarover
Fiftyyearsarover (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 19:50
Bloody hell Hootsmon .if I ever open a sofa factory you will be the first I call

 
Higgosboots
Higgosboots (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 19:53
I DO get all this self sufficient stuff but it's an oxymoron in football terms. You can't be self sufficient and successful on the pitch, no successful club on the planet is self sufficient, we CANT be self sufficient and successful unless we are going to be the ONLY club in the world that are. Football is an expensive do, it's a credit business, spend wheat you don't have on thagamble of success.

I have no issue with self sufficiency but the owner has to honest and say that self succinct sacrifices the pursuit of success and if the pursuit is self suffiecny then this is our league.

 
Aldo'smuzzy
Aldo'smuzzy (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 20:00
Quote:
Loyden1
That's cushioned the blow.mp is a CHAIRMAN after all.

(Sm53)

In Higgo's example our sofa shop owner needs to appoint a manager to sort out the stock and give him the necessary authority and funding to do it. And ensure he has the necessary funding to do it year on year, not just for the short term.

If the owner's doing this (and Palios is) it's then up to the manager to make the best of what he's got. That's not happening right now but but whether it's just a short term thing or whether the manager's not up to the job or the sofas are actually@#$%&isn't yet clear to everyone. The owner needs to keep an eye on it and at some point he might have some tough decisions to make, but many feel it's too early to say.

Btw, for all those who are saying spunk all the money now on an all-or-nothing push for promotion, who do they expect to pick up the pieces if the gamble fails, and where will the money come from to do that?

 
Higgosboots
Higgosboots (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 20:02
Furthermore.... say we get promoted this year, these players aren't good enough for league 2, we have to release them at cost from 2 year contracts, we then have to sign new players on new contracts over 2 or 3 years, as P'borough chairmen said in closed season, even nobody's want 3,4 or 5 k a year, so 22 players on 4K a year for 3 years, then we get relegated again and are stuck with the them or we go up, players aren't good enough release a few blah, league 1 now so wage demand is 4,5,6 or 7 k, so on and so forth, championship 10,11,12,13,14 maybe 30 k a week wage demands. Self sufficiency no workie, at some point a financial gamble must be taken.

 
MESSAGES->author
Matt34 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 22:51
Maybe you'd like to tell that to the guy with the top notch accounting degree and a sound understanding of the clubs current finances who is helping to run it.

I doubt he'd like to be told how to suck eggs, by people of at best equal though in all reality probably lower financial acuity, especially as it wouldn't matter if someone with the same accounting qualifications tried to impress upon him this theory of yours, he'd still have the edge by knowing the finances of the club, whereas the other person wouldn't.



Then I ate his Liver.......... with some baked beans and a can of coke.

 
MESSAGES->author
Phil65 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
15 September, 2017 23:02
Quote:
Aldo'smuzzy
Quote:
Loyden1
That's cushioned the blow.mp is a CHAIRMAN after all.

(Sm53)

In Higgo's example our sofa shop owner needs to appoint a manager to sort out the stock and give him the necessary authority and funding to do it. And ensure he has the necessary funding to do it year on year, not just for the short term.

If the owner's doing this (and Palios is) it's then up to the manager to make the best of what he's got. That's not happening right now but but whether it's just a short term thing or whether the manager's not up to the job or the sofas are actually@#$%&isn't yet clear to everyone. The owner needs to keep an eye on it and at some point he might have some tough decisions to make, but many feel it's too early to say.

Btw, for all those who are saying spunk all the money now on an all-or-nothing push for promotion, who do they expect to pick up the pieces if the gamble fails, and where will the money come from to do that?

Spunk all the money, no. Some regular relief, yes. Everyone needs a little love to prosper!

 
Viking Tranmere
Viking Tranmere (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
21 September, 2017 16:59
Speaking to a mate who is a season ticket with Stockport. They still pull in 3000+ crowds in Conference North but are stuck there:

"With 6 full time teams in our league and a few moneybags the best we will manage as part-timers is to sneak into the extra play-off place so the improvement in our situation is a way off!! We get 3000+ crowds but we have to pay the upkeep of Edgeley Park and the mortgage. Been part time for years now – there is a plan to go full-time but no timeline for that. It makes it very difficult to compete with the likes of Salford, York, Harrogate, Telford, Kidderminster as we have already proved! Then the likes of Chorley, Darlo, Spennymoor etc are PT but well backed financially. Makes me wonder why I bother!"

Its crucial we do not drop any further like County.

 
rossb07
rossb07 (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
21 September, 2017 17:46
Quote:
Viking Tranmere
Speaking to a mate who is a season ticket with Stockport. They still pull in 3000+ crowds in Conference North but are stuck there:
"With 6 full time teams in our league and a few moneybags the best we will manage as part-timers is to sneak into the extra play-off place so the improvement in our situation is a way off!! We get 3000+ crowds but we have to pay the upkeep of Edgeley Park and the mortgage. Been part time for years now – there is a plan to go full-time but no timeline for that. It makes it very difficult to compete with the likes of Salford, York, Harrogate, Telford, Kidderminster as we have already proved! Then the likes of Chorley, Darlo, Spennymoor etc are PT but well backed financially. Makes me wonder why I bother!"

Its crucial we do not drop any further like County.

It's a shame what's happened to Stockport as i used to enjoy the away day at their place.

Are they a fan run club these days?

 
Hoots Mon
Hoots Mon (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
21 September, 2017 18:16
Quote:
rossb07
Quote:
Viking Tranmere
Speaking to a mate who is a season ticket with Stockport. They still pull in 3000+ crowds in Conference North but are stuck there:
"With 6 full time teams in our league and a few moneybags the best we will manage as part-timers is to sneak into the extra play-off place so the improvement in our situation is a way off!! We get 3000+ crowds but we have to pay the upkeep of Edgeley Park and the mortgage. Been part time for years now – there is a plan to go full-time but no timeline for that. It makes it very difficult to compete with the likes of Salford, York, Harrogate, Telford, Kidderminster as we have already proved! Then the likes of Chorley, Darlo, Spennymoor etc are PT but well backed financially. Makes me wonder why I bother!"

Its crucial we do not drop any further like County.

It's a shame what's happened to Stockport as i used to enjoy the away day at their place.

Are they a fan run club these days?

Wrecked by Sale Sharks

 
Jack of all Trades
Jack of all Trades (IP Logged)

Re: Micky, Palios and the mess
21 September, 2017 18:34
Who have moved to the Salford Reds Stadium to ground share and have reportedly offered to buy it outright but, currently are tenants.


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