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Enablers.
hippogunner (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 08:44
As many know I've been a critic of Wenger for years. It's now ten years in fact since I first felt he should have been moved on. Of course any big club would have gently shoved him through the exit door if not ten years ago, certainly six or seven years ago. Back in 2008 I thought he'd probably be gone by 2014 at the latest. Then we did a miraculous thing and won a trophy and that was deemed proof of his necessity to the club.

Now the current climate is as toxic as it has ever been. Fans are still divided and though I think that Wenger's support has dwindled to its lowest since his time at Arsenal there are still fans willing to fight in his honour. It's an embarrassment.

You only have to pay a visit to a staunch Wenger apologist site called Untold Arsenal to see how Wenger's aura can still remain unblemished. There they are forever dreaming up wild conspiracy theories based on their so-called ref reviews in which it seems every single game we should have won with the odd draw thrown in, for the sake of realism I suppose.

For instance the year Leicester won the league they, or someone called Andrew Crenshaw, calculated that Arsenal should have had 107 pts. Now to achieve that, a points total that even the current City side can't amass, Arsenal would have had to won 35 games, drawn two and lost one. I wonder if any side in any league has ever managed that. And this remember was an Arsenal squad far inferior to the Invincibles.

When I queried their methods I got no debate, merely a brush off. They maintain that the PGMOL has a conspiracy against Arsenal but could they tell me how logistically this could be done or, more to the point, why? They could not.

And this is what we're dealing with. The absolute denial of the main immediate problem at Arsenal, the manager. I believe the fan base is finally drifting towards a Wenger out stance but you still get Wenger apologists. I call them enablers. The fans are not the worst in this respect, the true culprits are the spineless board and the owner who have let this farce fizzle on now like a damp firework hoping it'll explode into life. It won't. Wenger won't win the league again, he'll probably not make the top four again and he'll never win the CL.

When a multitude of fans from other clubs hold up signs indicating they want Wenger to stay you know your manager is finished. But the enablers, those with the power to rid us of this barnacle, are too cowardly and indifferent to act. They are enemies of ambition. The money's still pouring in, that's their succour, albeit probably not at the levels it was a few years ago.

I'll make a bold claim that if we don't win at least five of our remaining games, if we should lose five or six, then we'll be in a relegation battle next year. You can sense when a team is on the up. When Everton had a great run at the end of the 8384 season I wasn't surprised they won the league. They had an unstoppable impetus. And that can work in the reverse. A team that finishes a season ignominiously can carry that form into the following season.

Certain factors point to this: a weak manager, a team with no identity, a team that lacks fighters, a team low on confidence, a team where half the players appear to want out, a club that has very little attraction for good players. We don't have the spirit of a Swansea, a Bournemouth or a Crystal Palace. In short, the manager must go.

Yes Wenger is done but I can't aim all my ire at him, I reserve the majority of it for the enablers, they're the ones who have put Arsenal where they are



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2018 08:52 by hippogunner.

 
Re: Enablers.
CazOnARola (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 10:17
Good post mate. Only thing is i do believe we get bad ref decisions, esp against other top 6 sides, but otherwise as well. But that is of course not the sole reason for this mess.

And the biggest enablers are the club hierarchy.

 
Re: Enablers.
PKGooner (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 11:09
We get out fair share of luck too with ref decisions. Take the 2-0 win against spurs at home in November. First goal - never a free kick for the foul on Sanchez. Second goal Lacazette was offside.

It evens out.

Wenger has been an embarrassment against the other top sides for a decade now. Fair to say it's not because of the refs.

 
Re: Enablers.
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 11:47
Weve had a few free points off of Burnley as well



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

 
Re: Enablers.
hippogunner (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 12:07
Quote:
PKGooner
We get out fair share of luck too with ref decisions. Take the 2-0 win against spurs at home in November. First goal - never a free kick for the foul on Sanchez. Second goal Lacazette was offside.
It evens out.

Wenger has been an embarrassment against the other top sides for a decade now. Fair to say it's not because of the refs.

We have had decisions go our way. It doesn't even out though, that's statistically impossible but neither do I think we should claim we've been hard dome by.

You only have to look at that Kolisineac challenge in the Brighton game to see we got lucky there. He should have been sent off. In the same game a Brighton player got wrongly carded.I don't think even Untold Arsenal would have the gall to say we were denied by the refs in that game.

 
Re: Enablers.
Bergmars (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 12:41
He certainly won't go of his own volition I see him staying until the end of this contract. Kroenke is not going to sack him as for relegation it's not that far fetched.
We will not be a very attractive proposition to player's of worth new ones or those currently in our employ.
As I have said previously we are in a far bigger mess than some may realise.



Under new managment

 
Re: Enablers.
SandyB (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 14:27
Quote:
Bergmars
He certainly won't go of his own volition I see him staying until the end of this contract. Kroenke is not going to sack him as for relegation it's not that far fetched.
We will not be a very attractive proposition to player's of worth new ones or those currently in our employ.
As I have said previously we are in a far bigger mess than some may realise.

I don't think contract means much to him, he'll continue to stay even if his contract ends n as long as they keep paying him.

 
Re: Enablers.
Bergmars (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 15:20
It's got to the stage whereby he is akin to a stalker



Under new managment

 
Re: Enablers.
Shane (IP Logged)
09 March, 2018 20:25
Intersting how I get lambasting from PK over betting on us to finish in the top four, but Hippo predicts a potential relegation battle and he has nothing to say.

Good post Hippo and I agree with all of it, except the bit about relegation. In times of crisis the baby gets thrown out with the bath water and a lot of people tend to lose the run of themselves, much in the same way a worried parent focuses on the worst possible scenario if their child isn't home from school on time. In both instances, the fears never really reflect the reality of the situation.

 
Re: Enablers.
celine dion (IP Logged)
10 March, 2018 13:34
Ill always remember when Eduardo went over to Untold Arsenal. It was very sad, and I often ask myself whether there was more we could have done to stop him. After all, the signs were there.

He used to go on about how Arsenal were never shown first on match of the day, and also that Shearer and Lawrenson held 'laughable' opinions about Arsenal, such was their bias against us. That was when the alarm bells started ringing, and that stage really we as a group should have intervened. But of course, maybe it was too late, I expect he was already going on Untold Arsenal, I expect it seemed new, fresh and exciting, a place to chat with like minded friends who love Arsene Wenger and know within their hearts that Arsenal would win the league every year if it wasn't for the international refereeing conspiracy. I expect Untold Arsenal appointed a 'normal' seeming person, to welcome Eduardo in and make him feel at home, and of course, slowly but surely, Eduardo would have become assimilated in their way of thinking.

I saw his twitter page the other day actually. Of course it bore all the hall marks of one of the AKB elite. He was conferring with the likes of Blackburn George about referreeing decisions, and his followers were people like AKB crackpot Garden state goners. I realised then, that he had changed for ever, and could never be bought back to the normal world. But it is still very sad.

 
Re: Enablers.
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
10 March, 2018 15:14
Very good Celine, made me laugh. I suppose he was playing away but being the trusting type we didn't check up on him. He was a football blog double agent for a while. A sort of Burgess and McLean of the blogging world. When Wenger goes he will be lost spouting dogma that no longer has any relevance.



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

 
Re: Enablers.
Shane (IP Logged)
10 March, 2018 18:28
I didn't mind Eduardo. The whole conspiracy thing was a bit silly but he was spot-on at the time about a number of different things. I don't for a second believe that he was an 'In the Know' though.

It's possible that he had a friend of a friend who cleaned the toilets at the Emirates or something, but I find it extremely unlikely that he had inside information relating to the board room at Arsenal. Ed is from a town in Ireland that I've never been to, but I fully expect that the 'Welcome to...' sign at the beginning of his town has the population written on it with a paint brush, and there's probably wooden arrows as sign posts which Ed and his mates have been modifying to fool unsuspecting outsiders for decades.

The probability of Eduardo knowing someone, who knows someone, who knows someone, who knows someone on the Arsenal board is just very low to begin with, but the probability of top-secret information finding its way back to him? One in a million shot. I imagine it's a bit like some hillbilly from Delaware claiming to be an 'In the Know' over meetings inside The White House.

 
Re: Enablers.
weedz (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 00:03
Oh dear. I must say that the banter about our Gaffer has been the for about [/b]10yrs.[b]. 10 Phuckin Years!

First of all I have say I am now of firm opinion that Arsene should never been asked to sign on for his last 2 contracts. Especially the last one. So I am no longer an AKBer. He shouldn't be here now and in a perfect world, we'd have had new leadership at our club for quite some time. You know it and I know it.

From a fans perspective, what has 10 yrs of endless muttering done. Nothing. And what will another 10 years of senseless moaning do, if AW were to be offered and sign a new long term contact? Nothing.

Most on here love to shoot the messenger. And I understand that shooting the messenger has a long history in football, especially English football. If the fan-base are sick of their Gaffer, in general, they will attack him relentlessly. Mainly because the Gaffer is the front window of the club in question. He's accessible. He's an easy target. And we've got to keep up the tradition of the game we all love.

Some one on here explained to me, some time ago, that failing at doing the same thing over a over again and expecting different result, is being delusional. I except this.

After watching the Hammers v Burnly game this morning and seeing the fans attack the pan-lickers box, instead of Moyes, was the best fan reaction I've seen in English football, in the 53 yrs I've been watching.

Come on Guys! When are the fan base going to grow some Portuguese balls and have a go at our owner and board, instead of some employee?

American Gooners should be relentlessly attacking SS in the USA. All of His business interests should be attacked and given poor PR. Put the bloody pressure on where it can make a difference. Don't be delusional. English fans should attacking members of the board and their buisiness interests relentlessly.

Wenger has been taking the flack for 10yrs at Arsenal. It's water off a ducks back!

So I point the finger at you Fellas. Don't be delusional Don't be lazy and take the easy way out. Grow Some!

 
Re: Enablers.
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 01:03
I dont think Wenger is some employee, he appointed his own CEO, who has just decided, after years of suffering, to distance himself from him.
Yes Kroenke is also to blame for not sacking him, and if he ever dared to turn up no doubt the fans would take him to task, but he hasnt been visible in months. But Wenger is not Moyes, Wenger controls Arsenal from top to bottom, Kroenke by passed the board to keep it that way, so yes he is also to blame, and some fire has been going his way of late.
Meanwhile the board are distancing themselves not only from Wenger but from Kroenke.



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

 
Re: Enablers.
weedz (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 02:50
Padre, from the day Arsene signed his first contract with our club, he was a phone-call away from being sacked. He is and has always been an employee. All managers are.

His power base at Afc was freely given by both shareholders and the fan-base, based on his success. No one said, 'Well hold on a minute.', or very few did.

No disrespect Padre, and I've said this for a long time. The Board and Arsene have been drinking from the same cup. This situation has been allowed to happen under the stewartship of our shareholders and Board.

That's where the buck stops.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2018 02:52 by weedz.

 
Re: Enablers.
CazOnARola (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 05:40
Quote:
weedz
Padre, from the day Arsene signed his first contract with our club, he was a phone-call away from being sacked. He is and has always been an employee. All managers are.
His power base at Afc was freely given by both shareholders and the fan-base, based on his success. No one said, 'Well hold on a minute.', or very few did.

No disrespect Padre, and I've said this for a long time. The Board and Arsene have been drinking from the same cup. This situation has been allowed to happen under the stewartship of our shareholders and Board.

That's where the buck stops.
Exactly. Final authority is always the owners. They are the biggest pbm the ones who sold the shares as well as kronke so bought it

 
Re: Enablers.
celine dion (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 17:04
I would imagine the board are wondering what they've done wrong. They've thrown quite a lot of money at Wenger in the last few years. Sanchez, Ozil, Lacazette, Aubameyang. These are all major deals even in the context of modern football, especially in terms of wages. Even Xhaka cost quite a bit. Notice something about them though? They're all OFFENSIVE players. And thats the problem with Wenger. He cant manage a defence and he doesn't seem to give a monkeys about his defensive line up. In the days of Van Persie and Fabregas he used to seem quite happy with Almunia and Senderos at the back. Van Persie and Fabregas werent, of course, so they left. Its been going on so long that its boring talking about it. But Im not sure, to be fair, that this stuff has a lot to do with the board. Because as per the header of this thread, for some reason there are still legions of people who cant seem to bring themselves to criticise Wenger. 'Enablers' is a very good word, and I believe that the board, or rather their advisors, are very sharp in terms of their understanding of the fan base and social media (you can see evidence of this in terms of how they communicate) and you can look at it two ways. Maybe you think that they wont get rid of Wenger because he makes them so much money (although actually he cant be nowadays as we've dropped right out of the CL reckoning and wont be back in it any time soon), but its just as likely that they wont get rid of him because they feel they'd be getting rid of a club institution (that they helped create, admittedly), and while there is still this fairly large element that doesn't seem prepared to criticise Wenger, no matter HOW p*ss poor our performances, then we are stuck in this limbo, and the only person who can sort it is Wenger himself.

 
Re: Enablers.
Optimistic Gunner (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 17:58
exactly celine



http://i.imgur.com/b1SeVpw.png

 
Re: Enablers.
weedz (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 19:34
Hi CD. IMO Wenger gets plenty of critism from almost every Gooner out there. In fact he gets virtually all the critism. That's the way it plays out in football. In the English game it's even more so.

I'd suggest that my critism of the Board annoys you and many of Wengers harshest critics, because it takes some of blame away from the only person at our club that we Gooners are allowed to blame. This is the English way. The easy way. It's the way you like it.

Tell me. When you say 'That deluded old man has to go. What's going to be done?', apart from yourself, who are you asking? Like-minded fans? The Boards corporate model?

I agree. The Board are probably wondering what they've done wrong. They think they are doing a great job?

 
Re: Enablers.
PKGooner (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 06:24
Wenger isn't some saint.

He can and should step down. Does he not know he's driving the club into the ground and ruining his own legacy? what does he think when he sees half the stadium empty?

Totally his own fault. The board should absolutely sack him but let's not pretend Wenger isn't in the position to do the right thing.

The worst thing is his worshippers are crawling out of the woodwork again after these 2 wins and he's going on about how "Arsenal need to win the fans back".

Nothing Arsenal can achieve this season will stop it being a total failure. The only way he can win the fans back is by leaving.

 
Re: Enablers.
MattySadler (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 07:48
Quote:
PKGooner
The only way he can win the fans back is by leaving.

 
Re: Enablers.
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 09:06
Quote PK:
He can and should step down. Does he not know he's driving the club into the ground and ruining his own legacy? what does he think when he sees half the stadium empty?

Totally his own fault. The board should absolutely sack him but let's not pretend Wenger isn't in the position to do the right thing.



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

 
Re: Enablers.
hippogunner (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 14:23
I certainly do not support Wenger in anyway as perhaps CD may have implied as my thread title does seem to absolve him from some blame. I've vociferously shouted at friends and Wenger apologists for years about his need to go. That for me was something that should have happened back at the end of the last decade. My position is as strong as ever regarding that point but it's the fault of those above now, even more so than before because he's now failed to qualify for the CL two years running, unless he wins the Europa Cup. And for many in the higher echelons of the club that should be his minimum goal.

Wenger won't go of his own accord. Very few managers do, they have to be pushed. Wenger, I imagine, thinks only he can solve Arsenal's problems. If he had, as many have suggested for years, sorted out the defence he probably wouldn't be in the present position.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2018 14:24 by hippogunner.

 
Re: Enablers.
hippogunner (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 14:25
Sorry Padre, never saw your message until now and you have my permission to post this however you want but I suspect it's a bit late now. Cheers.

 
Re: Enablers.
weedz (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 04:47
OK it's all Wengers fault. I'm sorry for saying otherwise.

Apart from one or two, most on here reckons that no blame should be aimed at our owner or board. I don't agree, but if that's the way it's got to be on this site, fair enough. Most are more than happy with the way our club is run, so I will desist from trying to spread the blame.

 
Re: Enablers.
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 07:40
I do think the board and owners have to take a share of the blame, but the board have no power at all. They were not involved at all in awarding the last contract. so I blame them for not doing the honourable thing and resigning.
And I blame the owner for allowing Wenger so much power and backing him against all others at the club.
But Wenger has been responsible for team selection, tactics and recruitment, and for the lack of leadership at the club.The owner has allowed him free reign and to become arrogant.
And now the owner allows the situation to drift on, so yes he is to blame.
But it is easier to get shite off your shoes than to get rid of Kroenke, so change shoes; and even if you did get rid of Kroenke, Wenger would still have to go



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/03/2018 17:44 by Padre Pio.

 
Re: Enablers.
hippogunner (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 09:08
@Weedz, as Padre says above.

First Wenger has to go and then Kronke needs to go but of course the latter is very unlikely. I imagine we'll be stuck with the American parasite for years.

 
Re: Enablers.
Boston Gooner (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 10:49
Quote:
hippogunner
@Weedz, as Padre says above.
First Wenger has to go and then Kronke needs to go but of course the latter is very unlikely. I imagine we'll be stuck with the American parasite for years.



http://i63.tinypic.com/2dt9c3q.jpg

 
Re: Enablers.
kudzif01 (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 17:07
Quote:
CazOnARola
Good post mate. Only thing is i do believe we get bad ref decisions, esp against other top 6 sides, but otherwise as well. But that is of course not the sole reason for this mess.
And the biggest enablers are the club hierarchy.


The problem i have with people who complain about referring is that you are all good at highlighting bad decisions that go against us, but readily brush off the instances where decisions are in our favour.

In the long run especially over a season teams get what they deserve.When Arsenal was winning titles did the refs favour us then ?

 
Re: Enablers.
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 17:47
Quote:
kudzif01
Quote:
CazOnARola
Good post mate. Only thing is i do believe we get bad ref decisions, esp against other top 6 sides, but otherwise as well. But that is of course not the sole reason for this mess.
And the biggest enablers are the club hierarchy.


The problem i have with people who complain about referring is that you are all good at highlighting bad decisions that go against us, but readily brush off the instances where decisions are in our favour.

In the long run especially over a season teams get what they deserve.When Arsenal was winning titles did the refs favour us then ?

Absolutely tree, remember it was a shite decision at the Theatre of Night Mares that sparked the invincible run



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

 
Re: Enablers.
CazOnARola (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 19:02
Quote:
Padre Pio
Quote:
kudzif01
Quote:
CazOnARola
Good post mate. Only thing is i do believe we get bad ref decisions, esp against other top 6 sides, but otherwise as well. But that is of course not the sole reason for this mess.
And the biggest enablers are the club hierarchy.


The problem i have with people who complain about referring is that you are all good at highlighting bad decisions that go against us, but readily brush off the instances where decisions are in our favour.

In the long run especially over a season teams get what they deserve.When Arsenal was winning titles did the refs favour us then ?

Absolutely tree, remember it was a shite decision at the Theatre of Night Mares that sparked the invincible run
Refs favor big teams. The moment we weren't one, we were going to suffer along with the other clubs in the same bracket.
There was a time when it was impossible to get a penalty at OT for the away team. We all know what happened with juventus. Stats don't lie, when it comes referees we do tend to do well with certain referees. Graham pole used to do decent job for us lol.

I will never say it evens out at the end of the season, esp if it's a tight race, a penalty here and there will cost you the season. It probably evens out over a couple of seasons.

Of course refeering is not the reason why we are here. But to say we haven been hard done by l, by refs, some session defining ones as well, is just blind.
If you think refereeing started the invincible run, remember a bad decision over a dive stopped the run.

And the reason i say it doesn't even out over one season is because beating mantud at old trafford is a bigger result than snatching a victory at the hawthorns through a dubious penalty. Cause both of them have a totally different level of impact on your confidence.

There is no way we can say the club declined because of bad refs. But it is equally wrong to assume it evens out and hence doesn't affect the outcome end of season.
But that is only true to 2007 when we were competing for stuff where refs would not care opposition players who would just kick our players off the park. Not true later than that



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 13/03/2018 19:19 by CazOnARola.

 
Re: Enablers.
kudzif01 (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 23:07
Quote:
CazOnARola
Quote:
Padre Pio
Quote:
kudzif01
Quote:
CazOnARola
Good post mate. Only thing is i do believe we get bad ref decisions, esp against other top 6 sides, but otherwise as well. But that is of course not the sole reason for this mess.
And the biggest enablers are the club hierarchy.


The problem i have with people who complain about referring is that you are all good at highlighting bad decisions that go against us, but readily brush off the instances where decisions are in our favour.

In the long run especially over a season teams get what they deserve.When Arsenal was winning titles did the refs favour us then ?

Absolutely tree, remember it was a shite decision at the Theatre of Night Mares that sparked the invincible run
Refs favor big teams. The moment we weren't one, we were going to suffer along with the other clubs in the same bracket.
There was a time when it was impossible to get a penalty at OT for the away team. We all know what happened with juventus. Stats don't lie, when it comes referees we do tend to do well with certain referees. Graham pole used to do decent job for us lol.

I will never say it evens out at the end of the season, esp if it's a tight race, a penalty here and there will cost you the season. It probably evens out over a couple of seasons.

Of course refeering is not the reason why we are here. But to say we haven been hard done by l, by refs, some session defining ones as well, is just blind.
If you think refereeing started the invincible run, remember a bad decision over a dive stopped the run.

And the reason i say it doesn't even out over one season is because beating mantud at old trafford is a bigger result than snatching a victory at the hawthorns through a dubious penalty. Cause both of them have a totally different level of impact on your confidence.

There is no way we can say the club declined because of bad refs. But it is equally wrong to assume it evens out and hence doesn't affect the outcome end of season.
But that is only true to 2007 when we were competing for stuff where refs would not care opposition players who would just kick our players off the park. Not true later than that


You are proving my point as you go on about decisions that went against us ,but not once have you mentioned decisions that were favorable for us.

As for if it evens out or not no one knows unless an exhaustive analysis was done, so assuming it does not even out is also wrong.

I'm sorry you will go on and on about missed decisions in the games you mentioned but say nothing about the players performances and decisions made by the manager , and that makes sense to you.

 
Re: Enablers.
CazOnARola (IP Logged)
14 March, 2018 07:05
Quote:
kudzif01
Quote:
CazOnARola
Quote:
Padre Pio
Quote:
kudzif01
Quote:
CazOnARola
Good post mate. Only thing is i do believe we get bad ref decisions, esp against other top 6 sides, but otherwise as well. But that is of course not the sole reason for this mess.
And the biggest enablers are the club hierarchy.


The problem i have with people who complain about referring is that you are all good at highlighting bad decisions that go against us, but readily brush off the instances where decisions are in our favour.

In the long run especially over a season teams get what they deserve.When Arsenal was winning titles did the refs favour us then ?

Absolutely tree, remember it was a shite decision at the Theatre of Night Mares that sparked the invincible run
Refs favor big teams. The moment we weren't one, we were going to suffer along with the other clubs in the same bracket.
There was a time when it was impossible to get a penalty at OT for the away team. We all know what happened with juventus. Stats don't lie, when it comes referees we do tend to do well with certain referees. Graham pole used to do decent job for us lol.

I will never say it evens out at the end of the season, esp if it's a tight race, a penalty here and there will cost you the season. It probably evens out over a couple of seasons.

Of course refeering is not the reason why we are here. But to say we haven been hard done by l, by refs, some session defining ones as well, is just blind.
If you think refereeing started the invincible run, remember a bad decision over a dive stopped the run.

And the reason i say it doesn't even out over one season is because beating mantud at old trafford is a bigger result than snatching a victory at the hawthorns through a dubious penalty. Cause both of them have a totally different level of impact on your confidence.

There is no way we can say the club declined because of bad refs. But it is equally wrong to assume it evens out and hence doesn't affect the outcome end of season.
But that is only true to 2007 when we were competing for stuff where refs would not care opposition players who would just kick our players off the park. Not true later than that


You are proving my point as you go on about decisions that went against us ,but not once have you mentioned decisions that were favorable for us.

As for if it evens out or not no one knows unless an exhaustive analysis was done, so assuming it does not even out is also wrong.

I'm sorry you will go on and on about missed decisions in the games you mentioned but say nothing about the players performances and decisions made by the manager , and that makes sense to you.
Didn't you read the whole post? I'm saying we get decisions in our favor against weaker teams generally. The are several examples of bad refs in big games or crucial ties. Even if it is 5 v 5, if the 5 against big teams lead to loss of points, it best the morale a lot more and teams develop mental blocks against opposition.

And im taking about teams till 2007 when we actually used to play decent football but had a smallish squad and hence needed good decisions from refs in big games (constant fouling by opposing DM, etc).

Post 2007, bizarre managerial decisions, small squad, and player performances /commitment has been questionable at best


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