football
Latest News:
This is the board where Arsenal fans can discuss all things Arsenal, and any other football issues that they feel are of interest to Gunners. Opposition fans are welcome, but remember this board is from an Arsenal point of view. Off Topic Discussion should take place on the Off Topic Forum. Off Topic discussion will be removed. Any topic that is football related, within reason, is not off topic.


Amazing to think:
PKGooner (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 00:06
Wenger at one stage believed Denilson, Bendtner, Vela would become first teamers and lead us to trophies, being part of his "greatest squad ever".

The amount we've invested in those players, Bendtner and Denilson especially - the ridiculous £50k per week wages, the hundreds of games played.

F*ck me Wenger lost his mojo years ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/05/2012 00:09 by PKGooner.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 00:27
RThen how come no one at the Club sees it this way?

I'm sorry and I know you aren't a blind faither like some but really I think there is no way to know whether he suddenly just lost it or not given that we know his loss of judgment as you label it coincides with policies that made Board members who put nary a pennty into the club even to purdhase the holdings they sold in excess off 400 million pounds selling it in the same time period.

I just really find only publicly condemning the manager even if you share my views that the Board at least shares blame really just unfair.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
weedz (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 01:36
At one time he also thought Viera, Henry, Pires, Fabregas, RvP, Walcott, Szczesny, Sagna and Ox were/are going to make it, as well, PK. And they were/are probably getting even more, mate.

Your point?



Mertz for Club Captain

 
Re: Amazing to think:
weedz (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 01:44
In the same transfer period as he bought Deckchair for 3.4m, he also bought Tomas Rosicky £6.8m, Fran Merida free, Alexandre Song £1m, William Gallas swap. So what you`re suggesting doesn`t hold water, Buddy.



Mertz for Club Captain

 
Re: Amazing to think:
nomi_gooner (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 06:12
@ above weedz..

rosicky for 6.8 mill to play 5 games a season

merida for free to go back to spain

william gallas swap for world's best LB?

ok i give you song but what youre suggesting doesnt hold water buddy

I give you some more .. silvestre ? how can any @#$%&.g sane person can defend that or squallaci .. or almunia playing 150 games .. ALMUNIA =150+ GAMES .. shoot me .. denilson , bendtner , even walcott , gibbs, if these player played regularly then it gives us the answer that why are we trophyless



In Wenger I don't trust

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 06:36
Nomi the problem is this is the same manager from 1998-2005 that working with a drastically different policy arecruited and signed drastcially different players achieved dratically different results and drasycially ghreater success.

So what happened and why? And if the manager decided all this why did he decide to undermine his own success? And even if he did this which makes no real sense, why a Board that didn'tt necessartly support it as they seem to like to imply, not only approve it in the first place but back it after multiple seasons of decline and disappointment?

The closest comparison I can make to Arsenal under Arsene Wenger is Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali up until he was stripped of his title and the right to box and after he was allowed to resume his career. different circumstances and factors yes but very similar trajectory despite Ali reclaiming his heavyweight crown twide after resuming his career. Like Arsenal after 2005 he just wasn't the same.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
De Times (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 07:54
After 2005:
Szczesny, Gibbs, Sagna, Vermaelen, Kos, Song, Wilshere, Coquelin, rvp, clichy, hleb, nasri, fabregas, flamini, rosicky, adebayor, gallas, santos, diarra, etc
Those were great finds..



"The problem was the stadium. They didn't have the money to buy the players. Arsene is a straight guy. He can see into the future. He didn't want to be penalised by financial fair play so he wanted to stay by the rules and not living by debt. This year everything has been paid. He's just paid 50 million euros for Mesut Ozil. In the future he will do it". - Nasri.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
karsene16 (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 08:10
Wenger has been given the same freedom as always, someone told him he makes players what they are. Hardworking players improve under Wenger, when players that add new tricks and skills and skills to their game you know they're going to get better, even Adebayor did some overtime to work on his finishing.

Those lot and Wenger didn't mix, Bendtner should be in a crossing team, Vela should be is a slow league, Denilson an even slower league.

I'm not buying this 'Wenger can never pick up a bad player' because he did spend a lot on loads of cheap players in the past that didn't make it to the first team and Jeffers.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Amazing to think:
karsene16 (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 08:14
Quote:
De Times
After 2005:
Szczesny, Gibbs, Sagna, Vermaelen, Kos, Song, Wilshere, Coquelin, rvp, clichy, hleb, nasri, fabregas, flamini, rosicky, adebayor, gallas, santos, diarra, etc
Those were great finds..

What didn't/doesn't help this lot is Jigsaw puzzle teams, When one is missing it kind of spoils everything.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Amazing to think:
De Times (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 08:18
Jeffers and who karsene?
Anytime wenger had spent up to 7m pounds on any player, they become an instant hit.



"The problem was the stadium. They didn't have the money to buy the players. Arsene is a straight guy. He can see into the future. He didn't want to be penalised by financial fair play so he wanted to stay by the rules and not living by debt. This year everything has been paid. He's just paid 50 million euros for Mesut Ozil. In the future he will do it". - Nasri.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
karsene16 (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 08:53
Richard wright was 6mil.
Van Brockhorst although good at other clubs was @#$%& here 8.5mil.

It's the fact that Wenger's philosophy has not changed, the prices have gone up, what used to be a 600k signing has now become the 1.5mil(in Park and Squillaci's case 3-4 mil eye popping smiley) signings but now a lot more concentration goes towards these players. Like Kolo 150k some make it, like stepanov and Danilevicius 1m each some don't.

Looking at the transfers I don't even know why Arsenal bother with cheap signings.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Amazing to think:
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 09:30
There is often one diamond in the elephants dung, but a lot of dung has to be shifted first.
Herbert Chapman believed that cultivating youth players gave you a chance of 1 in ten. The other 9 wouldnt make it.
So Wenger has 70 of these types hanging around at any one time, not just youth, but bargains.
That means you can expect 7 good ones, I am not sure we even got that.
And the dross is piling up.
Take Diaby, not his fault his injured, but no manger would count on him, its time to move on. I wouldnt make too big claims about Sczcsney yet, lets wait and see.
Meanwhile no one will pay for Deckchair or Bendtner. Almunia allowed to go a free after all the wages he was paid. Hoyte's times 2, led to nothing. Fabianski, another dodgy keeper.

Sqilllaci, causes panic, chamakh cant shoot, Gervinho the new Hleb, Djourou an averag squad player. Without Arteta Song loses positional sense.
Coquelin, Lansbury and Frimpong who knows if they will really be top grade?
Ramsey doesnt seem to have recovered from his severe injury. Wilshere out for over a year now, what will he be like when he returns?
Walcott one good match in three, doesnt want to take players on any more.

In the first stage of Wenger's career here the team was packed with world class stars, now its full of sicknotes, would be's and has beens. Yes there's RvP, but who knows how long for. After RvP there is no major scorer of goals. Apart from Arteta no other midfielder scores a reasonable number of goals.
Apart from Walcott no attacking midfielder scores, well apart from Ox but Wenger wont play him. And then Park the missing Korean.
God its a joke.



Arsenal is a top 16 European club that will remain a top 16 European club and the Emirates is tape-loop that will win trophy after trophy

Nothing will change to stop Arsenal's domination except the ticket prices which must go up so that Wenger can make even more marquee signings.

Kroenke, Gazidis & Wenger are made for each other a glorious triumvirate heading for immortality.

Arsenal’s not a football club it is the one true religion Milton Palmer

 
Re: Amazing to think:
nomi_gooner (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 11:00
Quote:
De Times
After 2005:
Szczesny, Gibbs, Sagna, Vermaelen, Kos, Song, Wilshere, Coquelin, rvp, clichy, hleb, nasri, fabregas, flamini, rosicky, adebayor, gallas, santos, diarra, etc
Those were great finds..

aur u serious about these players man?

 
Re: Amazing to think:
De Times (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 12:28
Gibbs was as good as any lb in the league last season, and so was santos, if not better.
Lassana diarra got sold to madrid, and we made an extra 7m pounds on him later.
Coquelin is one of the best young players in the league.
Gallas was worldclass.
Rosicky was worldclass untill his legbreak, he's picking up that form now.



"The problem was the stadium. They didn't have the money to buy the players. Arsene is a straight guy. He can see into the future. He didn't want to be penalised by financial fair play so he wanted to stay by the rules and not living by debt. This year everything has been paid. He's just paid 50 million euros for Mesut Ozil. In the future he will do it". - Nasri.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
I_got_Gooneria (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 12:53
Look at the united youth then, where they are now. Like spectar etc. etc.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
karsene16 (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 13:40
Quote:
Padre Pio
Coquelin, Lansbury and Frimpong who knows if they will really be top grade?

All well said Padre but on this point Coquelin will make the grade, Frimpong hard to tell we may need a battering ram, Landsbury no IMO.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Amazing to think:
PKGooner (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 14:27
Quote:
weedz
At one time he also thought Viera, Henry, Pires, Fabregas, RvP, Walcott, Szczesny, Sagna and Ox were/are going to make it, as well, PK. And they were/are probably getting even more, mate.
Your point?

Yes, at one time he did bring in Vieira, Henry and Pires - when it appeared he was sane.

Out of the lot you've listed above, only Fabregas and RvP would have gotten into Europe's best sides.

At one stage you mention Henry, Vieira, Pires, then right after that you mention Walcott, Song, Rosicky and Merida grinning smiley If anything you've proved my point mate grinning smiley

Wenger lost his transfer mojo years ago



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/05/2012 14:33 by PKGooner.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
PKGooner (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 14:27
Quote:
De Times
After 2005:
Szczesny, Gibbs, Sagna, Vermaelen, Kos, Song, Wilshere, Coquelin, rvp, clichy, hleb, nasri, fabregas, flamini, rosicky, adebayor, gallas, santos, diarra, etc
Those were great finds..


Great finds? (Sm22)

Number of trophies won after 2005 = ....?

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 16:27
Quote:
karsene16
Wenger has been given the same freedom as always, .

Prove it Karsene - prove he has been given the same freedom and financial backing as before 2005 with an actual cdocument. I mean that is the standard you use to seperate fact from fiction no? It is certainly the standard you use to questions the views I have put forth. Surely you aren't one of thiose biased hypocrites witha sliding acale for the trtuh based entirely on what you want to believe being true and nothing else are you?

Oh wait that is precisely the kind of dishonest hypocrite you are onto that image.

You are nothing more than a hypocrite and blind faith fanatic.If one has the unmitigated gall to question the Board's honour and virtue this is your standard for proof

Quote:
karsene16
I want proof radio, I want to see the an actual document stating how much they made from Arsenal to the penny.

But when it comes to any claim the Board or its defenders make your standard for proof is

Quote:
karsene16
that's enough for me,

That is the textbook definition of blind faith or trust as well as exhbiting a double standard for the truth and hypocitical behavior. And frankly in the relatively short time I have encountered you completely expected from you.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
karsene16 (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 17:03
net spend

season 96/97 = £20mil
season 97/98 = £.08mil
season 98/99 = £13mil
season 99/00 = £22mil
season 00/01 = £35mil
season 01/02 = £15mil
season 02/03 = £6mil
season 03/04 = £20mil

average 96/04 =£16mil

season 04/05 = £4mil
season 05/06 = £36mil
season 06/07 = £13mil
season 07/08 = £31mil
season 08/09 = £15mil
season 09/10 = 10mil
season 10/11 = £14mil

average 04/11 = £17mil + over-inflated wages.

with season

season 11/12 = £53mil

average 04/12 = £22mil + over-inflated wages.

courtesy of [www.transferleague.co.uk]



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 17:40
Karsene I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and say you were simply lazy or confused, because you are citing gross spend numbers.

The net spend numbers are two columns over. Now if you're confused net spend is determined from them total spent from both purchases and sales.

So using the very same page you cite but the column maked NET Total which should tell you that is the NET spend

season 96/97 = £10.1 million
season 97/98 = £.005 million
season 98/99 = £8.93 million
season 99/00 = MINUS £6.18 million
season 00/01 = £3.30 million
season 01/02 = £10.98 million
season 02/03 = £0.89 million
season 03/04 = £16.65 million

average 96-04 =£5.58 million

season 04/05 = £1.6 million
season 05/06 = £6.78 million
season 06/07 = MINUS £17 million
season 07/08 = £13.4 million
season 08/09 = MINUS £3.55 million
season 09/10 = MINUS £31 million
season 10/11 = £6.8 million

Season 11/12 = £MINUS 17.55 Million

Average 04-12 = £MINUS 5.08 Million

In other words as I have said before depite the adjustment in the figures from this site(mostly different schedule/FY) a reduction of about 11 a million per year in net spending the last eight years. Most telling the club only made a net profit once before 2004 as opposed to FIVE IMES since 2005.

Like I say I will give you the benefit of the doubt. You couldn't have been that dumb as to ignore that last column or to think I would ignore it even if you did. I hope not anyway.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
karsene16 (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 17:49
Yes, sorry I did just put up the spending but the spending has not changed, unless you have the know that the money was robbed from him, you can only say Wenger is still consistent, the 31mil made was due to massive help from Manchester City. This is the money we simple folks talk about going missing. You stick to the flats money.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 18:10
Has hr though? After from 1996-2004 Arsenal made a profit only one year in player trading as opposed to four years since 2005?

And where that profit before 2004 was 6.18 million, the average profit in those four years since 2005 has been about 17 million per year.

If anything the conclusion that can be drawn is the insistence that money from sales goes back to the manager is less the certan at best. Unless of course you are saying the manager is taking bungs or something since you refer to missing money.

Of course given what happened with George Graham over far far less missing money it would represent a radical change in attitude on the part of the Board not to investigate and deal with such a possibility in the same manner.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
karsene16 (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 18:23
1. How do you know that the job description from the very first day and Arsenal was to spend within a budget of 17mil a season no matter the sales and the money carried over will be add to the next season?

2. Most of the big profits came from sales of players that came to Arsenal without previous medals or titles, something you don't like.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 18:42
Can you clarify what you are asking here because I am not clear on your question. Are you suggesting there is a specific annual amount because as I pointed out while the number may have some consistency over the two eight-year period in fact there is a dramatic shift in the spending philosophy - one year in the first eight with a net profit and five years in the last eight with that net profit.

Plus you have to factor in inflation in both fees and wages (despite Arsenal being the only major club to limit its wage structure at the top end). So I would say that is is an umclear claim to make about consistency on spending for a variety of reasons.

As to your second point, what a pure nonsense. Our single piggest profit ever was on selling a 20 year old we bought at 17 back in 1999, who won two medals while at Arsenal and had one season of ten-plus goals in the Prenmiership.

No if you want to be accurate we would like more players with proven qulaity and talendt regardless of the number of medals they have won thouigh that certainly often goes hand-in-hand with what i just said.

But we would also prefer that the players we develop into top players aren't just sacrificed to increase profit magin regardless of the pedigree when we signed them - especially if we aren't going to buy those more proven and costly players.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
karsene16 (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 20:42
stop arguing and listen up,

point 1. The question is about spending, does it not seem quite a coincidence that a manager has kept an average of 16.5mil in spending every season for 15years?
could this not be a target from the very beginning or a style of management. Selling Anelka didn't change it why should should it change from 03/04 onwards.

2. I was talking about the massive profits we were making in the second half, again Anelka didn't change the spending style and neither did the sales of Kolo and Adebayor.
The only real change came with the sales of Cesc and Nasri this season when we clearly now know Wenger's not going full blast with youth.
Also you have stated you wanted the club to buy proven players and players who have won medals in the past and that has changed since 03/04, but you answered my question in saying Anelka was bought without medals and young, would that class as Wenger have youth policy in both era's?



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Amazing to think:
De Times (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 21:08
Radio you need to get used to Karsene, he's a hypocrite, another one is pk, lol.



"The problem was the stadium. They didn't have the money to buy the players. Arsene is a straight guy. He can see into the future. He didn't want to be penalised by financial fair play so he wanted to stay by the rules and not living by debt. This year everything has been paid. He's just paid 50 million euros for Mesut Ozil. In the future he will do it". - Nasri.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 21:28
DeTimes why don't you finish that study paper on how Lee Chapman was a better football player then Diego Maradona then, ok?

 
Re: Amazing to think:
flynchstone (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 21:44
Arguing about whether Wenger is being refused finance or he is refusing it himself is like arguing about the existence of God. None of us can prove it either way. So let's please stop trying.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 21:55
The problem isn't whether it can be proven or not but why we can't unite to press the the Club as one on the matter. Indeed the inability to come to any sort of unanimous conclusion or consensus in either direction should concern us all that we need to know more.

If we continue to sit quietly and idly and let the Club tell us what it chooses to and accpet it or just not stand up and challenge they have no incentive to do anything differently and can take continued full advantage of our unwillingness to question their actions or the motives which may lay behind them.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
flynchstone (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 23:26
Define 'challenge'. Forget who, but someone on here was talking about starting a boycott comprising of not buying anymore jerseys/ merchandise. Arsenal is a world wide brand and they'll still sell plenty of merchandise in Asia. You would need to boycott games and how many people genuinely want to do that. Besides, I'm as frustrated as anyone about the lack of silverware but the only reason I could think of for there to be a justified protest would be if RvP left and wasn't adequately replaced. Though that's not exactly beyond the realms of possibility.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
SuperRöb (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 23:31
the pod is rvps replacement.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
PKGooner (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 23:45
Quote:
De Times
Radio you need to get used to Karsene, he's a hypocrite, another one is pk, lol.


(Sm17)

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
27 May, 2012 23:49
Flynch the thing is there are other options short of those we can employ but we have to employ and we have to show we are willing to take the successive if and possibly when need be.

Our problem is we can't come together on this and I am not talking about resolving this debate. We are not going to get the blind-faithers to join us. I am talking about those who do feel that just quietly trusting the Club t sort this out won't work.

We need to gather and work between us to present a real challaenge to the status quo and we are running out of time as the Club is happy to focus on expanduiing the global brand and happy to risk the wrath of the traditional supporter base so long as that base lets them.

I will say it again - we still hold the hammer here if we want to use it because if we pull the rug from under them in the next five or ten years it will destroy most if not all their plans for the next ten or twenty years and if we threaten those plans they will sacrifice some additional profit now simply to give those plans which no doubt will benefit Stan Kroenke far more than anything they are doing now will on its own, the chance to reach fruition. Clearly the Club has shown a willingness to give up a few million now to make more later on a number of occasions on a number of fronts.

We simply have to shown them they have to do that now and give up a few million more than they are ready to to make any more later. If they push us and we turn our back opn the club a day ahead of schedule and every penny they plan on making in 5, 10, or 20 years is in jeopardy.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
flynchstone (IP Logged)
28 May, 2012 08:43
Quote:
SuperRob
the pod is rvps replacement.
We all agreed that we needed back up for RvP all last season, so if he leaves then Pod is not adequate replacement we need at least one more striker and an AM as well because RvP had one of the highest assist rates in the team as well. Also, who will be the new captain? Podolski is not the answer to everything.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
karsene16 (IP Logged)
28 May, 2012 09:08
Quote:
De Times
Radio you need to get used to Karsene, he's a hypocrite

Why am I a hypocrite? because I believe Wenger should spend? the amount of profit we gain shows there's money. When a player wants to start games he goes to the managers office, when a manager wants a good team he goes to the chairman and board. If he's happy to pick up his paycheck and not want the best team available with the funds available, he needs to quit football.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Amazing to think:
De Times (IP Logged)
28 May, 2012 13:27
What of when a manager continues to pick a player who in your opinion isnt doing well? The answer is either the manager is making a mistake or the manager is satisfied with the player's performance. In both cases it comes down to the manager taking all the blame. Now think about wenger being the player and the board being the manager, in which case wenger is satisfying the board and exceeding their targets and the board feel quite lucky to have him.



"The problem was the stadium. They didn't have the money to buy the players. Arsene is a straight guy. He can see into the future. He didn't want to be penalised by financial fair play so he wanted to stay by the rules and not living by debt. This year everything has been paid. He's just paid 50 million euros for Mesut Ozil. In the future he will do it". - Nasri.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
28 May, 2012 14:12
First off to re-iterate on your questions though in fact I answered them - there is no real support to the notion of a consistent spending pattern. As I noted earlier from 1996-2004 using the Transfer League figures and schedule we had one year where we made money in the transfer market as opposed to four such years from 2005-2012.

When you also factor in other factors such as market inflation and the impact of our readjusted wage structure on who we could actually sign it appears more liely that the Club and yes the board set a limit on increasing beyond such levels. It also suggests that the Board was not in fact making profits from sales available to the manager the past seven years or again that the new wage structure made their availablity irrelevant in terms of actually being able to use them.

Your second point again is non-sense. What I and I would suggest others would like to see is more money invested into players of more proven quality and pedigree yes and often there will be a connection between pedigree and trophies won, but not always so winning trophies is not an absoluter must as important as it can be simply im having experience winning things.

But beyonmd that the problem is doubled when you sell the best of those players bought as pure potential in every instance as they reach that potential.

It's not a metter of a youth system versus a system of veteran winners when you do this. It's a matter of no system at all other than a profit-generation system.

Finally you're a hypocrite about the issue of the Board's role and responsibility in all of this and the standard by which you judge the Board's judgment character and integrity. You want a a film like that of Jack Ruby shooting Oswald something that incontrovertible to believe the Board did anything improper yet anything the Board says no matter how little evidence to support it or how much to contradict it is using your words "good enough for me"

That is clearly a inconsistent and shifting standard of fact as suits you and your personal views and judgement and a classic double-standard, which well is what defines hypocrisy.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
karsene16 (IP Logged)
28 May, 2012 15:22
Quote:
De Times
What of when a manager continues to pick a player who in your opinion isnt doing well? The answer is either the manager is making a mistake or the manager is satisfied with the player's performance. In both cases it comes down to the manager taking all the blame. Now think about wenger being the player and the board being the manager, in which case wenger is satisfying the board and exceeding their targets and the board feel quite lucky to have him.

Yes, we all now the board love Wenger because he makes the CL every season and doesn't acquire the 3 quality players every season needed to win the league, he loves the conveyor that he's entered into of losing a few buying a few not losing a few buying six.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Amazing to think:
your mother (IP Logged)
28 May, 2012 22:30
'transfer mojo'... i believe the correct term is money. the best players go where the money is. is this really not obvious by now?

 
Re: Amazing to think:
Philly the kid (IP Logged)
28 May, 2012 22:37
The secret is to win things before they fu(k off then.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
PKGooner (IP Logged)
28 May, 2012 22:51
Quote:
your mother
'transfer mojo'... i believe the correct term is money. the best players go where the money is. is this really not obvious by now?


Wonder why we didn't end up with Cabaye, Cisse, ben Afra or Tiote then - we obviously have much more money than Newcastle - the money wasted on Gervinho, Squillaci or the continued plundering on useless f*ckers like Denilson, Diaby, Vela and Bendtner would have been better spent on quite a few other players.

Arsene has indeed lost his transfer mojo

 
Re: Amazing to think:
Mr. Clock End (IP Logged)
28 May, 2012 22:53
Yes I am sorry to say but Gervinho is an awful player. I keep hoping he gets better but he seems to get worse

 
Re: Amazing to think:
De Times (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 00:29
Fabregas, bought for 2m, sold for 35m, 33m profit, highest ever.
rvp, bought for 2.7m sold for 30m+??
Nasri bought for 12m, sold for 25m with just a year on his contract, 13m profit.
Ade, bought for 3m sold for 25m, 22m profit, same as anelka in those days.
Pure magic buys there pk, and when did wenger make all these great buys? Not long ago.



"The problem was the stadium. They didn't have the money to buy the players. Arsene is a straight guy. He can see into the future. He didn't want to be penalised by financial fair play so he wanted to stay by the rules and not living by debt. This year everything has been paid. He's just paid 50 million euros for Mesut Ozil. In the future he will do it". - Nasri.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 00:35
What is the point DT if all that money is used for is to enrich rich people even further?

 
Re: Amazing to think:
Jonny Bravo (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 02:00
While I firmly believe Wenger has been a lightening rod for the old board, and continues to paper over the cracks of an owner who is not willing to take us to the next level, this cannot excuse the on pitch problems that have plagued us for a number of years now.

While we can sit and discuss the merits of this and that player until were blue in the face, fundamentally its my opinion that a mangers responsibility is to get the best out of the players at his disposal, instilling a sense of belief and strength of character.
Wenger's teams since as you could argue since 2007/08, despite the constant statements to the contrary, have lacked this much vaunted and equally maligned "mental strength". Players have come and gone but the same weakness remains, the post Eduardo/Gallas flop, the CL semi final drubbing, the title winning positions over the last few years bottled the lager cup final etc .

Sure the youth project didn't help in this regard, as well as those elusive two signings we were always away from being able to really challenge, but it runs deeper than that. Wenger philosophy, mojo whatever you want to call it has gone stale, its being a slow steady decline, the events of last summer seemed to drive it home for him and almost seemingly left him in a state of denial.
While a measure of credit must be given to him for hauling this team back form the brink, this season, expectations were so low in September that 3rd has been labelled as some sort of wonderful achievement.
The sheer level of inconstancy, especially against the so called weaker teams, says to me that Wenger is no longer able to motivate the players in his charge, watching his sheer frustration on the sideline in recent times is evidence enough.
So whats the solution..
The club seem to be stuck in some sort of never ending cycle of mediocrity and complacency, ranging from the players on the pitch right up to Silent Stan,with the bare minimum celebrated as success and those who demand more ridiculed and sold.
The cycle has to be broken from the top for sure, but if Stan suddenly decided to investment even 30m or the much vaunted commercial deals came through in 2014, would you trust Wenger to spend the money based on his recent track record?

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 02:34
The problem here is do you trust the Club to make that money available to the manager based on the track record since 2005? Do you trust them to restructure our wages so we can invest more of that money into signing better quality players?

That isn't to dismiss your question Jonny because its every bit as valid as the question I am asking. Rather its to point out how critical it is that we get the right answer.

For just as you suggest Arsene Wenger may refuse to spend the money in 2014 or spend it unwisely I think there is every bit the possibility that a new manager will not be given that money to spend or be underminded by a wage structure designed to prevent additional spending. Indeed I think there is more actual evidence supporting what I fear will happen so we all should be concerned about either possibility being the root of our rot since 2005.

Amd either way we are screwed so our goal should be to get the truth from the Club and then get them to address the probl;ems and correct them in any event.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
PKGooner (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 06:38
Quote:
Jonny Bravo
While I firmly believe Wenger has been a lightening rod for the old board, and continues to paper over the cracks of an owner who is not willing to take us to the next level, this cannot excuse the on pitch problems that have plagued us for a number of years now.
While we can sit and discuss the merits of this and that player until were blue in the face, fundamentally its my opinion that a mangers responsibility is to get the best out of the players at his disposal, instilling a sense of belief and strength of character.
Wenger's teams since as you could argue since 2007/08, despite the constant statements to the contrary, have lacked this much vaunted and equally maligned "mental strength". Players have come and gone but the same weakness remains, the post Eduardo/Gallas flop, the CL semi final drubbing, the title winning positions over the last few years bottled the lager cup final etc .

Sure the youth project didn't help in this regard, as well as those elusive two signings we were always away from being able to really challenge, but it runs deeper than that. Wenger philosophy, mojo whatever you want to call it has gone stale, its being a slow steady decline, the events of last summer seemed to drive it home for him and almost seemingly left him in a state of denial.
While a measure of credit must be given to him for hauling this team back form the brink, this season, expectations were so low in September that 3rd has been labelled as some sort of wonderful achievement.
The sheer level of inconstancy, especially against the so called weaker teams, says to me that Wenger is no longer able to motivate the players in his charge, watching his sheer frustration on the sideline in recent times is evidence enough.
So whats the solution..
The club seem to be stuck in some sort of never ending cycle of mediocrity and complacency, ranging from the players on the pitch right up to Silent Stan,with the bare minimum celebrated as success and those who demand more ridiculed and sold.
The cycle has to be broken from the top for sure, but if Stan suddenly decided to investment even 30m or the much vaunted commercial deals came through in 2014, would you trust Wenger to spend the money based on his recent track record?


(Sm152)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/05/2012 06:44 by PKGooner.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
Bergmars (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 07:48
Quote:
PKGooner
Quote:
your mother
'transfer mojo'... i believe the correct term is money. the best players go where the money is. is this really not obvious by now?


Wonder why we didn't end up with Cabaye, Cisse, ben Afra or Tiote then - we obviously have much more money than Newcastle - the money wasted on Gervinho, Squillaci or the continued plundering on useless f*ckers like Denilson, Diaby, Vela and Bendtner would have been better spent on quite a few other players.

Arsene has indeed lost his transfer mojo
Amen.



DB10,the best.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
Bergmars (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 07:51
Quote:
Jonny Bravo
While I firmly believe Wenger has been a lightening rod for the old board, and continues to paper over the cracks of an owner who is not willing to take us to the next level, this cannot excuse the on pitch problems that have plagued us for a number of years now.
While we can sit and discuss the merits of this and that player until were blue in the face, fundamentally its my opinion that a mangers responsibility is to get the best out of the players at his disposal, instilling a sense of belief and strength of character.
Wenger's teams since as you could argue since 2007/08, despite the constant statements to the contrary, have lacked this much vaunted and equally maligned "mental strength". Players have come and gone but the same weakness remains, the post Eduardo/Gallas flop, the CL semi final drubbing, the title winning positions over the last few years bottled the lager cup final etc .

Sure the youth project didn't help in this regard, as well as those elusive two signings we were always away from being able to really challenge, but it runs deeper than that. Wenger philosophy, mojo whatever you want to call it has gone stale, its being a slow steady decline, the events of last summer seemed to drive it home for him and almost seemingly left him in a state of denial.
While a measure of credit must be given to him for hauling this team back form the brink, this season, expectations were so low in September that 3rd has been labelled as some sort of wonderful achievement.
The sheer level of inconstancy, especially against the so called weaker teams, says to me that Wenger is no longer able to motivate the players in his charge, watching his sheer frustration on the sideline in recent times is evidence enough.
So whats the solution..
The club seem to be stuck in some sort of never ending cycle of mediocrity and complacency, ranging from the players on the pitch right up to Silent Stan,with the bare minimum celebrated as success and those who demand more ridiculed and sold.
The cycle has to be broken from the top for sure, but if Stan suddenly decided to investment even 30m or the much vaunted commercial deals came through in 2014, would you trust Wenger to spend the money based on his recent track record?
Excellent post and sums what AFC is now in a proverbial shell of nuts.



DB10,the best.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
De Times (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 10:01
Johny Bravo, i would think your points where excellent if only you did avoid the inconsistencies in your argument. You admitted that wenger "paper over the crack" and then question how he hasnt "got the best" out of his team. Surely a manager who papers over the crack is doing enough to get the best out of his team. I would think it takes real "mental strength" and a sense of "believe and character to "haul this team back from the brink" when "expectation was so low", to the "wonderful achievement" of coming "3rd".
You also admitted that the team has always been a few players short, and the youth project has led to inconsistencies and a near success syndrom. That is true, and i'd add to it that a young and an incomplete team leads to many injured players which can see the team go many spell in the season with a much weaker team than it really is. How you manage to then turn around and say "but it runs deeper than that" without actually explaining how it runs deep is beyond me. Most people will agree that saying "it runs deeper than that" isnt quite the right phrase to use in your expecting a manager to perform some extra miracles after he had constantly performed many miracles by papering over the crack all these years.
Another thing that baffles me is you claim that the events of the last summer has driven "it home for him", and yet we still do not see the players we expected to see, yet you still manage to think wenger is responsible for that situation.
And how does showing frustrations over varying issues on the sideline mean that the manager can nolonger moltivate his team, especially after you'd previously given him "credit" for "lifting up his team".
You claim that wenger's team has been inconsistent (you earlier gave a reason for that which wasnt wenger's fault), and you pointed out some key results which didnt go his way, and then you use that to conclude that wenger has lost his mojo. May i remind you that if wenger has had those results gone his way that his team wouldve been winning all these trophies which wouldve been completely unreal and extraordinary. Where then is the middle ground between a manager losing his mojo and recording an extraordinary performance?
Your solution is for the cycle to be broken at the top, how you managed to arrive there is beyond me since there wouldnt be a problem if all of what you pointed out as wenger's faults didnt exist.
.
You're one inconsistent fucka bravo, and like everyone of these moaners you just had an excellent rant. Of course people like you will call it an excellent point when all it is, is an excellent rant. Thats what most fans do these days, isnt it?



"The problem was the stadium. They didn't have the money to buy the players. Arsene is a straight guy. He can see into the future. He didn't want to be penalised by financial fair play so he wanted to stay by the rules and not living by debt. This year everything has been paid. He's just paid 50 million euros for Mesut Ozil. In the future he will do it". - Nasri.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
De Times (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 10:03
Johny Bravo, i would think your points where excellent if only you did avoid the inconsistencies in your argument. You admitted that wenger "paper over the crack" and then question how he hasnt "got the best" out of his team. Surely a manager who papers over the crack is doing enough to get the best out of his team. I would think it takes real "mental strength" and a sense of "believe and character to "haul this team back from the brink" when "expectation was so low", to the "wonderful achievement" of coming "3rd".
You also admitted that the team has always been a few players short, and the youth project has led to inconsistencies and a near success syndrom. That is true, and i'd add to it that a young and an incomplete team leads to many injured players which can see the team go many spell in the season with a much weaker team than it really is. How you manage to then turn around and say "but it runs deeper than that" without actually explaining how it runs deep is beyond me. Most people will agree that saying "it runs deeper than that" isnt quite the right phrase to use in your expecting a manager to perform some extra miracles after he had constantly performed many miracles by papering over the crack all these years.
Another thing that baffles me is you claim that the events of the last summer has driven "it home for him", and yet we still do not see the players we expected to see, yet you still manage to think wenger is responsible for that situation.
And how does showing frustrations over varying issues on the sideline mean that the manager can nolonger moltivate his team, especially after you'd previously given him "credit" for "lifting up his team".
You claim that wenger's team has been inconsistent (you earlier gave a reason for that which wasnt wenger's fault), and you pointed out some key results which didnt go his way, and then you use that to conclude that wenger has lost his mojo. May i remind you that if wenger has had those results gone his way that his team wouldve been winning all these trophies which wouldve been completely unreal and extraordinary. Where then is the middle ground between a manager losing his mojo and recording an extraordinary performance?
Your solution is for the cycle to be broken at the top, how you managed to arrive there is beyond me since there wouldnt be a problem if all of what you pointed out as wenger's faults didnt exist.
.
You're one inconsistent fucka bravo, and like everyone of these moaners you just had an excellent rant. Of course people like you will call it an excellent point when all it is, is an excellent rant. Thats what most fans do these days, isnt it?



"The problem was the stadium. They didn't have the money to buy the players. Arsene is a straight guy. He can see into the future. He didn't want to be penalised by financial fair play so he wanted to stay by the rules and not living by debt. This year everything has been paid. He's just paid 50 million euros for Mesut Ozil. In the future he will do it". - Nasri.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
karsene16 (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 11:14
Playing Arshavin and Ramsey got on a few peoples nerves this season, don't think you can blame a chairman or board when Rosicky and AOC are on the bench. Also the constant playing Rosicky LW early on in the season and Ramsey LW at the end.

Workings of a madman.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 13:58
Blame a chairman or Board for what? What have they said? What have they done? Absolutely noting but support Arsene Wenger 100%, talking of positions for life, a place on the Board, even another contract extension as manager, and not even contradicting his statement that this spending policy(Actually it's hardly a spending policy at all really is it since we are operating at a profit in the transfer market since 2005) will remain in place for two more decades.

But even assuming the manager is as you say, no effort from the Board to remove and replace him for the good of the Club or the holding company or even their investment. But we shouldn't wonder why because we know the Board has never done anything that hasn't had the best interest of Arsenal Football Club alone at heart because they say so.

Never mind that this sounds like one of those celebrity doctors or shrinks making tons of money off their superstar patient by letting stay sick enough to have to pay them to stay alive or apparently sane because that is more profitable than helping heal and cure them.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
Bergmars (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 14:30
Quote:
De Times
Fabregas, bought for 2m, sold for 35m, 33m profit, highest ever.
rvp, bought for 2.7m sold for 30m+??
Nasri bought for 12m, sold for 25m with just a year on his contract, 13m profit.
Ade, bought for 3m sold for 25m, 22m profit, same as anelka in those days.
Pure magic buys there pk, and when did wenger make all these great buys? Not long ago.
Again people are happy we are making cash instead of really challenging for honours,we behave more like an investment company than a football club.\\\\\



DB10,the best.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
Rockstaar (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 14:34
Quote:
Playing Arshavin and Ramsey got on a few peoples nerves this season, don't think you can blame a chairman or board when Rosicky and AOC are on the bench. Also the constant playing Rosicky LW early on in the season and Ramsey LW at the end.
Workings of a madman.

thumbs down



http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5066/verminator2.jpg
[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 14:48
Of course you can blame a Board or Chairman if their financial policy undercuts investing in improving the team.

What's next the Titanic wasn't White Star's Fault because they were sure the ship was unsinkable and therefore had no obligation to provide sufficient numbers of lifeboats for all the passengers who paid to travel aboard her? Because that is your logic

 
Re: Amazing to think:
De Times (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 17:30
Quote:
Bergmars
Quote:
De Times
Fabregas, bought for 2m, sold for 35m, 33m profit, highest ever.
rvp, bought for 2.7m sold for 30m+??
Nasri bought for 12m, sold for 25m with just a year on his contract, 13m profit.
Ade, bought for 3m sold for 25m, 22m profit, same as anelka in those days.
Pure magic buys there pk, and when did wenger make all these great buys? Not long ago.
Again people are happy we are making cash instead of really challenging for honours,we behave more like an investment company than a football club.\\\\\
It was more about wenger still being able to discover great talents than about the profits Bergmars.



"The problem was the stadium. They didn't have the money to buy the players. Arsene is a straight guy. He can see into the future. He didn't want to be penalised by financial fair play so he wanted to stay by the rules and not living by debt. This year everything has been paid. He's just paid 50 million euros for Mesut Ozil. In the future he will do it". - Nasri.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 17:58
If that was the case wouldn't we have paid to keep those players happy and at Arsenal DeTimes?

 
Re: Amazing to think:
tigerline (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 18:01
Quote:
De Times
Quote:
Bergmars
Quote:
De Times
Fabregas, bought for 2m, sold for 35m, 33m profit, highest ever.
rvp, bought for 2.7m sold for 30m+??
Nasri bought for 12m, sold for 25m with just a year on his contract, 13m profit.
Ade, bought for 3m sold for 25m, 22m profit, same as anelka in those days.
Pure magic buys there pk, and when did wenger make all these great buys? Not long ago.
Again people are happy we are making cash instead of really challenging for honours,we behave more like an investment company than a football club.\\\\\
It was more about wenger still being able to discover great talents than about the profits Bergmars.

It is more about developing those talents and using them to maximum tactical efficiency than about simply discovering them, DT.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
De Times (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 18:07
The fact that those players moved on to win trophies with other clubs and not with arsenal is not wenger's making.



"The problem was the stadium. They didn't have the money to buy the players. Arsene is a straight guy. He can see into the future. He didn't want to be penalised by financial fair play so he wanted to stay by the rules and not living by debt. This year everything has been paid. He's just paid 50 million euros for Mesut Ozil. In the future he will do it". - Nasri.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 18:17
Agreed DeTimes - but the issue is why is this happening? Why aren't they winning at Arsenal while they are here? I am noit a Wenger Out person by any means but there needs to be a correction in our course while we can make one without being diverted further from our hoped=for destination.

So we need to look at where the policy is failing and why and who set it and why and address correcting that.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
De Times (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 20:17
Is the policy failing? And what exactly is the policy?



"The problem was the stadium. They didn't have the money to buy the players. Arsene is a straight guy. He can see into the future. He didn't want to be penalised by financial fair play so he wanted to stay by the rules and not living by debt. This year everything has been paid. He's just paid 50 million euros for Mesut Ozil. In the future he will do it". - Nasri.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.

 
Re: Amazing to think:
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
29 May, 2012 21:04
It depends on whether the policy is to build a better more competitive more successful football team or to build a more profitable more valuable company around a more profitable football team. Though many would believe otherwise the jury is clearly out at best on this.


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net
 
 

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?