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Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Arsenal Times (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 14:35
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 13/05/2012 11:37 by Padre Pio.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
07 May, 2012 15:45
So true mate.i ohnestly think id enjoy a europa league campaign.actually being in a european competition that we could win and I ohnestly mean that.maybe the best of both worlds would be if we qualified for the champions league and finished third in the group stages....

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Flava (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 15:45
Quote:
celine dion
Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?

No

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Mad Jens (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 15:55
Er, I just want us to do as good as we can.

I don't really analyze it too much, but that does mean playing in the CL. I shouldn't have to feel bad about wanting to see our team in the best competitions, playing against the best teams.

There's nothing egotistical or elitist about it. If we're not playing to win why do we bother. And a "competition we can win"? Please, any tournament is a bit of a cr.ap shoot, we've as good a shot as any.

Do you actually think that Chelsea side is better than Barcelona? No, but they're in a final and that's exciting.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
eduardo (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 17:01
Celine this is not directly at you but I do find it funny when I see those that complain we don't spend enough on signings, or pay enough star type wages, or that we charge way too much in ticket prices, then come out with stuff like I would not mind us failing to make the CL,
never mind it will take £30M - £45M out of our season's revenue, they say we are not competing as it is, but do not say how losing that much revenue will help us compete more,
oh wait there is the liverpool spent £100M line, yes and are they any closer, but anyway that is not the point, the question is can liverpool spend another £100M anytime soon seeing as they missed out on CL again. You do know they were one day from administration only 18 months ago, missing out on CL for a few years was not good for them.

they say we lose players as it is, but don't dare mention that just maybe we would lose even more if we miss CL football. In the last couple of weeks two of spuds biggest names have stated that no CL football would likely mean they would want to leave, you see it does matter to players about playing in it, Arteta said it was the biggest reason he joined Arsenal.

Celine I like they way you make it sound like we get walloped every year in the CL, apart from AC this season(and we went out by 1 goal) and Utd in the semi when have we been walloped in it, we made final, semis and quarters in recent seasons, thats alot closer than you like to make out.

And Celine as for leaving Wenger out of it, I can't agree, he makes the football decisions, he is being given more than enough money to spend on the team, he is not using it well, and yes he has messed up the CC and FAC due to putting CL first, but no matter what fans think, CL is more important to any club than either of those cups, even king kenny last week said getting in CL is more important than winning a cup double, yes a cup double, so getting in CL is way more important than either CC or FAC.
If its not why do so many clubs stake so much on getting in to it, why do so many clubs gamble so much on it.
You know the answer Celine, the game is about money now more than it has ever been. Even the clubs with a sugar daddy do everything they can to get in CL.

For me just like Jens, getting in the CL is not about being elitist or egotistical, other than shutting up some spud troll I have never used the CL card to any other club's supporter, I enjoy seeing us play in it, the very same way I enjoyed seeing us play in other european competitions all down the years, and when it comes to it, I enjoy seeing us in the CC just as much, the more games we have the better.

Other than knowing the extra revenue can do no harm and should do good for Arsenal, that CL makes it easier to sign players if we so wish to do so, the main reason I don't want to see us drop to the EL, is cos as you say its on a thursday, and that means God damn more fecking Sunday 1pm games, feck that.



*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 17:43
A good reply Eduardo, but come on all we do is complete group stages and go out in first ko round, its becoming repetitious.
This board has no strategy for winninga trophy ever, they dont know how.
I agree with you Eddy on Wenger, but its true that CL has devalued the FA cup, I dont get any excitement out of cup anymore because I know Wenger will throw it.



Arsenal is a top 16 European club that will remain a top 16 European club and the Emirates is tape-loop that will win trophy after trophy

Nothing will change to stop Arsenal's domination except the ticket prices which must go up so that Wenger can make even more marquee signings.

Kroenke, Gazidis & Wenger are made for each other a glorious triumvirate heading for immortality.

Arsenal’s not a football club it is the one true religion Milton Palmer

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
eduardo (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 17:55
I do not deny CL has devalued the FAC, even the CC, and of course the europa league too. But not just for Arsenal, I was at an event on saturday with alot of fans of different clubs and none I talked to even knew the FAC final was on,

The two domestic cups were devalued the minute the FAPL was formed, the final nail in the coffin was cl top 4. the fact that even mid to top half teams field weakened teams in latter rounds of both CC and FAC show that neither are anything like as important as they once were. But you know we can't or wont go back to how it was.

By the way the importance of the FAC has always been over played in england, we all know the only reason it was as big at all was cos it was one of the very few live games on tv, once regular live tv games were available the FAC lost its mass appeal.



*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
celine dion (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 18:15
Eduardo, I'm not denying the game is about money more than ever. thats the whole point of the piece. I am arguing that unless a club is REALLY in with the big boys, then it makes for a hollow, repetitive experience.

And I do not accept that since 2006 we have been in with a shout of winning it. 2008 we would still have had to get past Chelsea, at a time we were falling apart in the league. United murdered us at home and away, one of the most disappointing nights of my life, the 3-1 game. Barelona did us 4-1 away, and 3-1 away, and could have beaten us by more if they had wanted, and the 4-0 against a not particularly good Milan team, proves my point.

Big clubs, with a lot of money, do not fall away at the end of the season, because they have invested in back up a lot better than Ramsey Chamakh Djourou and Gervinho, and have a squad with a greater level of interchangeability. We always do, because we end up running our best players (RVP, Song, and Nasri by his own admission last year) into the ground. We arent set up for this assault on all fronts, so the end result is always the same.

Now as far as the FA cup is concerned, I am not really interested in whether people outside those two clubs did or didnt watch the game. People who went, would have had a great day out, and that is what Arsenal need to be thinking about, providing occasions for their fans to remember, outside league games, which because there are so many of them, are the norm.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
eduardo (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 18:34
but is a day out at wembley anything of note if you don't win, of course not, or you would not have ignored the fact arsenal fans had a day out at wembley only last season

its also disengenuos to put forward only scores from one leg of the ties, the only real cl walloping we got - and I already mentioned it - was against man u

the fact our squad is not good enough is not down to the CL, its down to the faults of a manager and his loyalty to players and his heirarchy of selection amoungst other things.

cl is an important part of our revenue, the fact we are mismanaging that revenue should not lessen the importance of where the revenue comes from. As rocky often says, ample money is being spent for a number of years now on the squad, its just been spent badly, this is down to the manager. I would not mind if once we get in it for next season we actually rest players in it, and go all out for the league, but I don't expect this to happen, but nor would I expect us to go more for the league if we don't make the cl at all,


If we spend big this summer, it won't be cos we are in or not in the CL, but because our sponsorship deals up for renewal in two years time and the main talks will be likely concluded by this time next year, so next season is very important for future revenue streams



*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 18:38
I agree with much of your post Eduardo about the consequences but the claim that the manager is being given more than enough money is false and bordering on delusional and ignores the new wage structure which undermines using whatever money is actually made available in any event and I think was precisely designed to do that.

I think we overpay at the lower end not because of some socialist utopian ideal or we would have been doing so far sooner than after 2005 and in fact mainly after 2007, but because it allowed the Club to point to the total wage bill and deceive many of our less aware supporters about how much we are paying all our players and that has worked quite effectively unfortunately.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Boston Gooner (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 18:42
I personally want us to compete in the C/League.



http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt338/BostonGooner1/roastspurs.gif

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
eduardo (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 18:48
once again radio you ignore the fact that as long as total wage outlay stays in the 50% - 60% of revenue bracket the board are happy as it keeps within the self sustaining model,
wenger is the one who went with the higher wages for mid range players. And anyway the wages just like the transfer fees hide another one of wenger's waste of money, we have 71 pros, that is about 20 too many,
the money spent on that extra 20 would and should have been spent on better players, both those we have and those we missed out on.
Wenger also has had extra funds left unspent for the last couple of years,



*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 19:26
Is he? And you know this how?

The fact is if he did this than either the Board would have disapproved and sacked or the Board precisely for the reasons I state.

I know you would like us to believe they ended up making 400 million pounds that they never wanted to and were forced to take, that they made it by accident, made it in spite of themselves and their sheer incompetence, had to take whether they wanted to or not....I know that is what you cling to and hope others will cling to preserve our Club's noble and honourable image and your belief that they are living embodiments of the hallowed Arsenal Way and all it represents which as important if not more important thamn the reason Arsenal FC actually exists which is playing football.

The irony is the conduct of those individuals discredits themselves and not Arsenal or the Arsenal Way. After those things are bigger than any man or woman no? It is just as the Priest scandal does not invalidate the religious and moral teachings of the catholic Church as a whole(some things obviously, but not every thing)

The Irony is the Catholic Church is discredited as a whole for doing the same thing you are doing - denying and convering up the truth to preserve your own faith. That is what makes this worse than it is - supporters willing to let it happen because they are more afraid of admitting it might be happening because they will think less of the club and even themselves in a manner because they trusted in the Club so much.

Why should anyone think less of Arsenal Football Club or themselves for believing in everything right about Arsenal Football Club just because of what some greedy people did? Arsenal didn't reject the values at its core - some greedy third-generation Board members did. And why should anyone think less of themselves. You trusted someone and they let you down. It says more nad far more about them than it does any of us. But if you can't honestly admit that well....

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 19:55
we know about wages because one the club tells us the wage bill, two it tell us how many players on books.
Three Gazides told us that Wenger put his long term academy players on improved contracts to protect his wonderful assets.
Four the Ox came to us not Man U



Arsenal is a top 16 European club that will remain a top 16 European club and the Emirates is tape-loop that will win trophy after trophy

Nothing will change to stop Arsenal's domination except the ticket prices which must go up so that Wenger can make even more marquee signings.

Kroenke, Gazidis & Wenger are made for each other a glorious triumvirate heading for immortality.

Arsenal’s not a football club it is the one true religion Milton Palmer

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
celine dion (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 20:02
No Eduardo, we got another serious CL walloping 3 years ago when we scraped a 2-2 draw at home then got done 4-1 out in Barcelona. It was humiliating. a 6-3 aggregate defeat is a walloping. Likewise a 4-0 defeat in Milan is a walloping. They came to ours playing at half tilt and with about 6 regulars being rested. When they got a shock by us being 3-0 up, they soon sharpened up and we couldnt score again. So it is just as disingenious to claim we gave a good account of ourselves in either tie.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2012 20:37 by celine dion.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 20:29
Even worse was the year we couldnt get past Ajax



Arsenal is a top 16 European club that will remain a top 16 European club and the Emirates is tape-loop that will win trophy after trophy

Nothing will change to stop Arsenal's domination except the ticket prices which must go up so that Wenger can make even more marquee signings.

Kroenke, Gazidis & Wenger are made for each other a glorious triumvirate heading for immortality.

Arsenal’s not a football club it is the one true religion Milton Palmer

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Mad Jens (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 21:04
Or that time we couldn't even beat FC Basle, my god that was embarrassing.



Oh wait, that was Manchester United.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
celine dion (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 21:14
dont bring United into this, its pointless.

at the risk of making myself unpopular, this article is going to have a hell of a lot more relevance to paying Arsenal fans than it is our overseas ones/armchair ones. the prices matchgoers at Arsenal pay are extortionate in relation to the level and variation of experience the club actually offers. United have managed to keep seat prices relatively low in comparison to expenditure on players and actual performance - they are to be applauded in that regard.

we can all go through the hackneyed arguments along the lines 'if you dont like it dont go'. I have literally no interest in that argument. Football is an important element of the social lives of many of us. Those who understand this are the people I write for, and anyone else who is interested. But I have no wish to engage in a flat comparison of our performance financially/sportingly against those of our so called rivals. I would have thought my article made that clear.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Mad Jens (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 21:34
How is it pointless?

I'm supposed to think we can't compete in the Champions League, but talking about both Manchester clubs crashing and burning this season is off limits? Not much point of debating if you're going to pick and choose whats in play.

It just goes to show how random tournament style competitions can be, in which case... we're always in with a shout, so long as we're in.



That aside, of course it's going to be different for you if you're dropping xyz % of your annual salary to go. There's nothing wrong with saying that, it's true. Being labelled an armchair fan because I don't live in London is a bit harsh, but whatever.

Your response took a tangent I wasn't really expecting and I'm sure has been covered adequately by Ed earlier (complain about the price but CL means f*** all?) so I won't rehash it.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
celine dion (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 21:40
well OK, to put it very bluntly, United have dropped out the CL this year, but delivered 3 championships in a row, as well as several CL finals and a couple of wins, and CIty are about to deliver a championship in their first proper attempt. So in terms of fan experience, these clubs are winning.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 21:44
Nice try Celine and your point has some validity. But let's remember a single trip to London - air fare hotels restaurants to see one match even can cost what a season ticket does. I had one year 2005-2006 in fact where I travelled over three different times - four league matches home and away and a CL match in Amsterdam in September and October...I love the smell of grass in a stadium - smells like victory.... then got into our last NLD and next-to-last match ever at Highbury, and finally to Paris where I was shown the door for buying a scalped ticket. See ing six matches and actually attending five cost me well four grand or so. maybe five. F.uck it. All well spent though the match at Upton park was the single poorest display of football I have ever had to sit through talk about just an ugly match. My last time over the last home win over United did me three grand in three days.

Like I say all worth it for Arsenal. But it ain't just throwaway money either so I think you should recognize that us armchair and overseas supporters do have a similar stake in this thank you even understanding your point about the very real hard choices and sacrifices you are making and we all are making to show our love for our Arsenal.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
celine dion (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 22:06
well then, you can join the large club of people who spend a lot of money going to football with very little end result. welcome.

I dont see what you are saying, to be honest. I realise you like typing, but very obviously an overseas fan who keeps spending thousands of pounds to go to games is very superior in terms of devotion to people like me who hop on a train and are home again 2 hours later. Nevertheless, there arent that many of you, you arent typical. My problem is, people who dont go at all, drawing conclusions about the direction of the club, and justifying its position, its charging, or its performance, without taking into account the costs the club imposes on its paying fans. Not that Jens was particularly doing that, but a LOT of people do. I realise I will get the usual stuff about shirt prices, Satellite TV prices, and so on. Wonderful stuff, but I am not that compelled by it, so this is my view, take it or leave it.

All I am saying, is dont bring straightforward comparison of results into things, in terms of saying United have had a few bad results this year, ha ha ha at them, because United have delivered a LOT of great times for their fans these last 4 or 5 years, and kept their basic prices fairly low.

Basic stuff.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2012 22:12 by celine dion.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
celine dion (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 22:31
i probably seem a bit disparaging here. So lets be clear that I enjoy talking to Arsenal fans all over the world. I also really enjoy it when I meet overseas fans at the ground or in the pubs, who have travelled from obscure parts of the world, like the two poor s8ds I met in the tea queue at the dire Wigan game a year back, who had travelled in that morning from BALTIMORE off all places. I also have no doubt, that if you chaps lived where i do, then you would go to all the games as well. probably more in fact. After all many of you show an uncanny devotion to the club just by being here every day discussing the goings on, from the other side of the world. There isnt anything that makes me morally superior about going to a match. Its made easy for me, because I live nearby.

that said, the club cannot do without paying fans at the ground. without us, it has no global export. to put it bluntly, their global TV experience would comprise a silent ground with a large number of red empty seats. so the club needs to look after us. I am not convinced it is doing. I think it takes us for granted. I think the CL qualification routine is a dreary one, i think the end result per season is a feeling of deja vu and emptiness. I think the club should show greater commitment to the FA cup when two years running we have taken 7000 fans to ties in the north on a Saturday evening where it wasnt even clear how people would get home again. That is, purely and simply, my only point. If you get that same feeling sat at home in Kuala Lumpar, then you can join my club. If however, you sit at home in Kuala Lumpar and think, 'whats he moaning about, if he doesnt like it, he doesnt, have to go. Arsenal are doing just fine, given their financial situation', well thats where we will have to agree to disagree.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 22:36
Not superior at all. I would never claim to be more of a supporter on the basis of matches attended or money spent.

Celine you are the one who did that by questioning why the supporters who are not centrally located in North London would feel as strongly as those located in it. I find that very offensive. I am not alone I am sure. I find that ioffesive even acknowledging freely that my connection to Arsenal is not as direct or immediate or as deep as those supporters born and raised Arsenal in North London.

But I will not allow you to say it is any less genuine or heartfelt as you are suggesting.That is wrong and unfair period. I just won't let you do it without reply.

As to the rest of your concerns where have I dismissed the feeling of the local supporters who make as I have very hard real-world choices and real-world sacrifices (and quite often harder ones than I ever have to) solely for the pleasure of supporting the Club they love? I would love for you to name one example of where I have said that.

Indeed I have beaten the drum as loudly as any ST holder about how disgracefully you and other ST holders past and present have been treated by the Club and its actions of recent years, and even when the subject has arisen expressed my outrage at how so many great Gooners who regularly came to Highbury were simply priced out of attending matches and supporting Arsenal at the Emirates from day one. Again show me example of saying otherwise. Don't bother trying because you won't find one. But if you try don't say you weren't warned lol.

As for United I have never made light of United having some bad results. the wost i have said United is that they are poorer the past three years than any time under ferguson since when he first took over at United and even that just has pointed up how a bit more ambition from us could have seen achieve so much more and said that was an indictment of our policies as much as it was of their quality.

I know I can be a pain in the ass to read but you should actually read what I say if you are going to critique afterward.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
celine dion (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 22:47
My comment was aimed at Jens' comment about Man United. Not Jens himself, just the idea that Uniteds situation can be compared to ours. I think United have done extremely well to sell large amounts of cheap seats, and still put a winning team out. That point might be lost on people who are not familiar with the pricing situation in our ground or theirs. Thats my point really. Put bluntly, my writing is largely going to be from the point of view of the paying punter. Unless i stop going, then, frankly, i will cease to have an opinion on whether the club offers value for money or not. Again, basic stuff, and no need for a big emotional debate on whether i am belittling our large contingent of overseas fans.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2012 22:50 by celine dion.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 22:56
Fair enough. I was wondering really because in both instances - about the ST holders and United(and I agree wholheartedly with point you made in reply - I just hand't said that) - I really haven't said any of what was being suggested in that post.

As I say how the ST holders have been used and abused given the difficulties they endure to be ST holders to support their club is shameful. And its not just financial things - its the stewards banning standing and even sometimes singing and the like destroying what atmosphere there is inside the Emirates. The patronizing manner in which they do treat our great supporters with the gall to actually raise questions they don't want to have to answer.

Something has gone very wrong that never would have been allowed 80 years ago or 40 years ago 0r 20 years ago by the people running this club the past several years.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
07 May, 2012 23:33
Agree with a lot of what you say Celine. As always there's some buts...........

If we miss out on CL football it's the fans who go to the games who will eventually have to fork out to cover the lost revenue and like many others I'm already stretched to pay for my season ticket.

While the group stages are a naked money making exercise the knock out stages can be good. The two games against Barca were great nights and I had a chance to see the best team of the current era live. I'm sure you remember the first 30 mins of the 2-2 game where we couldn't get out of our own half. Exceptonal football. The alternative would be turning up on a Thursday to see our kids thump some Russian works team.

I also reckon that we have a better chance of winning the CL than the league. You don't have to be the best team to win it if you get a few breaks along the way like Liverpool in 2005 or maybe, God forbid, Chelsea this year.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Merlion96 (IP Logged)
07 May, 2012 23:51
CL CUp guarantees at least £35million revenues to pay off that £20million mortgage loan per annum till 2031; plus a bit left over to improve the contracts of senior players like Van Persie, Song and Walcott.

Taht settled, Wenger will move on to see which players he can afford to buy to strengthen the squad in hsi pursuit of the Holy Grail like Abramovich, CL Cup.

Look at the team he built nowadays, not suitbale for physical battles and high-paced games in English League, but nicely setup for the short-passing games in Europe..till they met marquee teams like Barca and Real, who outpassed 'em, and cynical teams like Milan who out-counterattacked 'em.

Therefore, Wenger is fixing the TEAM for another assault on CL CUp by buying Poldolski either as a direct replacement for Van Persie (most likely as he needs to sell every year to balance the book) or a bonus if Van Persie, which is most unlikely.

Then, he needs tos trengthen the DEFENCE against counter-attacking team liek Milan; plus a hardman to break-up short-passing team like Barca and Real....and enough muscle to out-muscle CHelski, ManLeeds and ABu DHabi when meeting 'em in CL CUp qtr-final or semi-final.

Oh, winning CC and Fa CUp plus the title is just a byprodcuts of creating and rebuilding a TEAM that can conquer Europe.

The cornerstone of Kroenke, Gazidis, PHW and Wenger's Policy is to be Top-4 every season without fail.
Forget what they said, failing is not an option as it is devastating in losing that annual £35million revenues.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
08 May, 2012 00:44
I love how you put forth this pure speculation as if you are in the room and taking part in the discussion or even taking notes on the meeting, Merl.

A lot of say can be said to be speculation, but in my case its informed speculation I can make connections to actual facts to at least support my efforts to shed light onto what may or appear to be happening.

Unfortunately your post above fails to do that at all or even attempt to do that really, I mean you make some very intriguing points and I would not at all be surprised if your point about Podolski is accurate. I think that is why Lassana Diarra was brought in though I can also see Robin seeing out his contract and Podolski becoming his replacement in 2013-2014. I always thought Diarra was brought in to replace Flamini directly and Gilberto indirectly with Song replacing Gilberto directly but Diarra's impatience threw the spanner in.

Like I say you raise some interesting points but don't seem to support them with real facts too often. But beyond that why sould that be solved solely by a managerial change as you seem to be pushing. And if you aren't why those of us who feel that way able to unite to try to push the Club if not to come clean than to do what is needed just to shut us up?

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
hippogunner (IP Logged)
08 May, 2012 06:40
I have to agree with Celine.

Bringing in other team's failures in the CL to somehow improve our performance in it is fine but don't use Manu as an example seeing as they're trophy cabinet is hardly empty in the last seven years. Do you need to be reminded how many times Manu have won the CL since Wenger's reign?

Anyone with objective eyes can see we'll never win the CL with the current squad or Wenger managing. Could you imagine our team defending like Chelsea did or pulling back from three goals down in a final? Be sensible.

We have a team of chokers, the majority of which have never won one single trophy. They don't know how to. They can't even close off a third spot in the league.

Wenger has no idea how to sort out his defensive mess. We concede more goals every year. What you do need to win the CL is a proper defensive unit not one that spends most of the time roaming around up field.

Playing in the CL is all about financial gain as Celine says. Football fandom is about glory on the field not about bragging how much money the club has sitting in the bank. Some of you are turning into mini Wengers, exactly what those two impostors from America want.

Answer this, would you rather win four FA Cups in the next six years like Chelsea have in the last six or qualify for the CL for the next six years?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2012 06:50 by hippogunner.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
08 May, 2012 07:49
See I have a problem with people singling out the Americans who (and I'm go to say this to let you prove you feel otherwise if so)as so disinterested in the Club's footballing success while ignoring the fact the Board who sold to them showed no more interest in it while pushing to sell the Club and get as much money as they could for themselves.

I tire of hearing how even before his first full year as owner was over how Stan Kroeke was an asset stripper whose sole interest was lining his own pockets when he did nothing any differently from the previous Board yet that previous Board even after chasing in for 400 million pounds and seeling off players for six seasons the same way we did this season remain beloved Custodians of the Club solely interested in preserving and protecting its long-term survival.

It smacks of racism as defined in Europe or at least the most negative sort of nationalism like how dirty non-English players are when they do the same thing that is clever gamesmanship when English players do it. Just because they previous Board was proper English gentlemen with histrtorical connections to the Club does not make their conduct or excuse it any way and it does not excuse anyone from judging it differently.

Indeed maybe if we all had shown the same level concern and healthy skepticism about what the Board earlier was doing as what Stan Kroenke is doing now maybe we would have won some trophies because the Board would not have gotten away with the ridiculous selfishly-driven, profit-driven austerity they intitiated or supported without exception.

It also smacks of some people who don';t want to admit they were taken in by the previous Board over-reacting to the same behavior from the new Board to try and cover their failure to see it or ignorance of what they did see sooner.

Either way it just seems wrong and beneath us as supporters really and dishonest to an extent. I'm no fan or friend of Mr. Kroenke's and if I had my druthers the Club never would have benn sold to any party and we just would have gone back to pre 2005 spending and wage policies and I'd have been perfectly happy Or at least had we sold to someone with "Arsenal in his or their blood" as we were told they wanted to lead us forward.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2012 07:54 by RadioFreeArsenal.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
karsene16 (IP Logged)
08 May, 2012 08:56
One massive catch 22.

We are talking about losing revenue we bury underground.

We are talking about playing teams that beat us.

We are talking about keeping players that could leave for personal reasons not just no CL.

We are paying the highest prices for nothing in return.

Best manager in the world can't beat a relegated team in a final with worst players and manager.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
hippogunner (IP Logged)
08 May, 2012 09:03
That Karsene is a very cogent summing up of Arsenal FC. Sumptuously succinct, perfectly expressed.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
08 May, 2012 09:18
Of course they aren't leaving because we have declined on the pitch or because our Board doesn't want to pay them half-decent money. No they all just want to leave. Please.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
karsene16 (IP Logged)
08 May, 2012 09:50
Quote:
RadioFreeArsenal
Of course they aren't leaving because we have declined on the pitch or because our Board doesn't want to pay them half-decent money. No they all just want to leave. Please.

We probably have squad players on more money than Newcastle and Tottenham's first eleven. The money is there just not allocated right.

Let's not forget 4mil down the toilet on park, 4mil that could ease ticket prices or pay the wages of a proper assistant manager.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Mad Jens (IP Logged)
08 May, 2012 14:34
We need to trim some fat, Karsene, but that's a gross exaggeration. Ade makes 170k a week and Spuds pay half of that for their loan agreement. Ledley King spends more time in the treatment room than Rosicky ever did and makes even more.


Quote:
Let's not forget 4mil down the toilet on park, 4mil that could ease ticket prices or pay the wages of a proper assistant manager.
4 million spread across an entire season's worth of games for every supporter at the ground.

What's the discount there, 3 cents?

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
younghansolo (IP Logged)
08 May, 2012 15:07
I love watching us in the CL. Love the big games against the likes of Milan and Barca. The excitement isn't the same if we were to be going against the likes of Bilbao etc.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Bergmars (IP Logged)
08 May, 2012 20:17
I have no problem with wanting to take part in the CL and agree to a degree we cannot compete with Man City or Chelsea financially.
More importantly I would like to see some tighter tactics employed and defenders who understand that their primary job is to stop our opponenets scoring.
Wingers who can actually cross with some degree of accuracy and score a few goals.
Goalkeepers who can concentrate for 90 mins,and some discipline will to win and use of a brain from all our players,that is the managers job to provide,whether we are in the CL,FA cup CC or the EPL.
What Wenger and his coaches do every day on the training ground mystifies me ,we look under prepared and certainly in many games not motivated or organised.That is the important thing to me.
Frankly after 2-8 at OT if someone said we would be going into the last match in third I would have first laughed then snatched their hand off,so low are my expectations.



DB10,the best.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
De Times (IP Logged)
09 May, 2012 15:58
I enjoyed reading your article celine and truth be told i understand exactly where you're coming from. Sometimes i'm tempted to think along a similar line especially after struggling so much to get something that is er.. not all that relevant. But then as eduardo said, the money from champions league football is a major revenue for us talking from the all-important economic sense of things. For me though, playing in the champions league is like playing in the premier league instead of the division one. It means more games for arsenal and more opportunity to for me to see arsenal play. I love the champions league and on a wednesday or tuesday night when other teams are playing i'd rather be watching arsenal than any other team in the world. The mere thought of teams like madrid playing in grounds like newcastle is what their fans would want to kill for, and thats why most other fans envy the top four teams. At arsenal we've hosted every top european teams not in a friendly (which i'd still be proud of) but in competitive games and we've beaten every single one of them. My point is, when i pray that arsenal makes the champions league, i do so mainly from a selfish interest and not because i think it is better than one title or the other.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
De Times (IP Logged)
09 May, 2012 17:32
Just a few questions for you Eduardo in relation to your claim that Wenger has had more money but hasnt spent it wisely and that it is the reason for our poor squad.
.
Since when was this much money available to the manager? I read in your previous posts that it was last season, i'm not quite sure if thats true but if true then it would mean that wenger wasnt responsible for the failings of those other seasons when he's had to work under financial limitations.
.
The money that you say is available to the manager, is it more than or even close to what is available to the other managers who have won major trophies in the same period? If it's much lower then not enough money has been made available. When people like you say we'd be competing with a few more spending, you fail to realize that it is wenger who brought you into the position where you could say that in the first place.
.
If a certain amount of money is made available for spending and 'the manager did spend' (as said by gazidis) but is at the same time made to sell his other valuable players to generate profit, would you still insist that money was still available for spending? Because my thinking is that money is made available to wenger every year and he spends those money but somehow has to sell to recoup the money that he was initially given and this has gone on consistently every year for it to be consider a mere coincidence or as some idiots would like to put it, wenger trying to make some points that he can do without spending or that he's just too stingy or too stubborn to spend. Going by the revelation by wenger that the club must make 15m before the start of every season, i'd think the reason wenger consistently sells as much as or even more than he buys is because he's had to generate money for the club through transfers.
.
Also, if you had the money available to wenger in the past years, say last season, how would u have spent it wisely? Wenger bought arteta, per, santos, gervinho, ox, park, campbell, jekinson, for a combined sum of 45m pounds. All those buys was considered a steal except for park who no one knows how good he is yet.
.
On wages, i'd like to point out that we have reasonable renumeration for our top players and most times their reason for wanting to leave the club has got more to do with pursuing a bigger ambition than earning more money. It's true flamoney and cashley left because of money, but i think the majority of players such as fabregas, hleb, henry, clich et al wouldnt have left the club if we were winning major trophies. So i dont completely agree with the notion that our inability to retain top players is entirely due to our poor wage structure. It may affect the signing of players but not so much the selling of players. With our low wage structure, we've still been doing fairly well to sign quality talents and turn them around using WengerMagic, but our greatest setback has been that we seem to be under the pressure to generate profit so much that we have to sell our top players every year. Some fans are predicting that we're going to sell Song and RVP this season going by antecedents, and if they leave it would be because rvp wants bigger ambition and that song is sold to generate profit for the club. But the truth is the continous selling of our top players has led to a continous rebuilding process every year which is the main reason we've failed to win trophies. Citeh with all their money, if they finally win the league this year it would be because they've been adding to their squad over the years than selling them. If arsenal had kept the 2007/2008 squad together, we wouldve won a major trophy in the last few years.
For the wage structure, it has served us well. We're the third best club in the league the past 7 years and we've been having the 4th highest wage bill. If you look at the wages of our first team we're even much lower than fourth, that is overachieving by any standard.
We tend to pay our youth well and we have alot of them, which has made our wage bill look bigger than they really are, but the truth is there are good reasons for that, reasons that i agree with even with the benefit of hindsight. Even for those who don't agree with how much we pay our youth and say we should reduce the number, they have failed to see that these same youths are highly valued elsewhere and the club recoup the money spent on them when they're sold on.
In a nutshell, wenger is managing his wage bill well and it's difficult to find a better club than arsenal when it comes to that.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
De Times (IP Logged)
09 May, 2012 17:46
Quote:
Bergmars
I have no problem with wanting to take part in the CL and agree to a degree we cannot compete with Man City or Chelsea financially.
More importantly I would like to see some tighter tactics employed and defenders who understand that their primary job is to stop our opponenets scoring.
Wingers who can actually cross with some degree of accuracy and score a few goals.
Goalkeepers who can concentrate for 90 mins,and some discipline will to win and use of a brain from all our players,that is the managers job to provide,whether we are in the CL,FA cup CC or the EPL.
What Wenger and his coaches do every day on the training ground mystifies me ,we look under prepared and certainly in many games not motivated or organised.That is the important thing to me.
Frankly after 2-8 at OT if someone said we would be going into the last match in third I would have first laughed then snatched their hand off,so low are my expectations.
What you're looking for bergmars are simply some better quality players, and those type of players cost money we're not ready to spend. What wenger and his team do everyday is why you see a winger such as rvp win the epl player of the season as a striker and why a player such as song continues to mystify people how he's turn out to be the top player he is today, and what wenger do in training is why we play the most watchable football in the league despite not having the best of players.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
Bergmars (IP Logged)
09 May, 2012 20:03
You are prob right DT,I want us to win everything but know it is not posssible.
What I do want is for us to be the best we can however we do it.



DB10,the best.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
09 May, 2012 22:13
DeTimes you make some very valid points in your intial questions to Eduardo above but you underrmine your own points and argument ia a way I struggle recall seeing anyone do so before by defending the wage structure as it has been re-set since 2005 particularly after 2007.

You need to ask yourself in Man City were to offer 80 million for Leo Messi and we offered 120 million for Messi but where City were ready to pay him 300K a week and we wre ready to put him atop our wage structure at 90 K a week where would he end up playing?

The only way he would end up at Arsenal for significantly less wages and significantly less probability of major silverware or just silverware right now is if Barca were to pay him 20-25% of the fee they received from Arsenal. Otherwise he woiuld end up at ManCity or remain at Barca.

Now that little entertainment(dedicated to the late great Maurice Sendak who understood dark cartoon tales like this)is that their is an absolute and unavoidable connection between what you are able or willing to pay your best players or players you wish to join the Club and the players you will be able to keep at the Club or bring into the Club. Not only does it reduce the amount of talent you can amintain withing the Club it reduces the number of prospects you can teven attempt to recruit to the Club to either increase the team's quality or even simply to replace the quality that leaves the club.

Let me be clear - I fully agree with you - money alone has rarely if ever driven any players out of Arsenal . I think a balance of money and competitve success has factored in every instance of players deciding to stay or go. That isd some will go to a club for more money if not more more trophies, some will go for more trophies while most have gone for a combination of the two.

In terms of bringing players in it is wise because we do lose out on a number of players based on money alone and then that many more players based on the combination of money and trophies and even some on top of that based on trophies.

So our wage structure combined with our selling of major assets in large numbers over a short period of time has hit the club hard both coming and going and weakened it either way making it harder when combined with our lack of success on the pitch to keep our best players (if the Club genuinely wants to now), or to sign new players of similar ot the same never mind improved proven quality again especially when combined with the lack of success the combination of the sale of assets and the shift to this wage structure has put in motion.

But you hit one thing that is painfully close to really getting this when you state our overpaying at lower end of the wage structure makes our wage bill look bigger(I'd have quoted directly but my PC is being bitchy about right clicking). That is 100% correct DeTimes.And I suspect it is 100% intentional.

You see the Board can happily claim that all sorts or money it doesn't want spent is available to spend if they know it is certain or highly unlikely it will be spent because our unwillingness to pay more at the top end of the wage structure or simply use a similarly designed wage structure to that in place prior to 2005 (the one where the wage bill was half what it is now but we had two more players on 100K aa week than we do now). the Board knows our lack of lack of top-end wage competitiveness combined with our lack of silverware does more to keep transfer spending down than any other factor.

But that doesn't mean they cannot claim money is available to spend if the manager wants. They just can'r claim that he can make any effort to shake up the wage structure in order to spend that money. Because its clear he cannot or for those who insist he just chose to do this on his own for the heel of it will not do it.

Thing is either way the Board was delighted with that fact and Dan Fiszman acknowledged it in 2007 when he said this

"we pay good salaries and pay them probably more evenly so we have less of the extremes.There is an ethos of a team effort"

Which means at the very least the Arsenal Board completely sanctioned this shift in wage policy if they did not design and initiate it. And they felt it preferable to the wage structure they sanctioned only three years earlier clearly before they borrowed the extra 130 million to re-develop Highbury.

But what it also means is the Board could say more money was available to spoemd they they wanted or knew would be spent and when people questioned the wage structure to many people were happy to look at the wage bill and ignore the details behind that bill and accept the Board's claims without testing whther they stood up to factual scrutiny.

Thus the Arsenal Board could say they were making more money available to spend without actually having to spend it and that they were paying our best players better without actually having to pay them better.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
09 May, 2012 22:18
Quote:
De Times
I enjoyed reading your article celine and truth be told i understand exactly where you're coming from. Sometimes i'm tempted to think along a similar line especially after struggling so much to get something that is er.. not all that relevant. But then as eduardo said, the money from champions league football is a major revenue for us talking from the all-important economic sense of things. For me though, playing in the champions league is like playing in the premier league instead of the division one. It means more games for arsenal and more opportunity to for me to see arsenal play. I love the champions league and on a wednesday or tuesday night when other teams are playing i'd rather be watching arsenal than any other team in the world. The mere thought of teams like madrid playing in grounds like newcastle is what their fans would want to kill for, and thats why most other fans envy the top four teams. At arsenal we've hosted every top european teams not in a friendly (which i'd still be proud of) but in competitive games and we've beaten every single one of them. My point is, when i pray that arsenal makes the champions league, i do so mainly from a selfish interest and not because i think it is better than one title or the other.


Great post De Times. Sums up exactly what it's like to be a fan. It's about hope and loving every moment you can watch your team. If it was just about winning trophies and glory then 80% of fans are wasting there time and money.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
09 May, 2012 22:29
Trophies cannot be the be-all or end-all in any team or individual sport for the supporters or the athletes. But the idea that we do not have to wish for greater success when it is withing our grasp as it clearly was from 1998-2005 or shouldn't be that far now is every bit as ridiculous precisely because no one has a divine right to trophies or success. It is one thing to say we cannot win every year but what about if that become 10 years or 20 years without winning solely because of the lack of ambition the Club shows. It's already seven years now...and there is no excuse really given the same core of Club Executives and Footballing Staff worked together to win seven trophies in the previous eight years.

One can say greatness comes and goes and comes again but its one thing in a ntural cycle, but for a club to give up greatness simply to make more money for its investors as it apparently case based on all we know now even is not the same thing at all.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
SandyB (IP Logged)
10 May, 2012 11:03
Quote:
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League? new
Posted by: jon_sammels_lovechild (IP Logged)
Date: 09/05/2012 22:18

Quote:
De Times
I enjoyed reading your article celine and truth be told i understand exactly where you're coming from. Sometimes i'm tempted to think along a similar line especially after struggling so much to get something that is er.. not all that relevant. But then as eduardo said, the money from champions league football is a major revenue for us talking from the all-important economic sense of things. For me though, playing in the champions league is like playing in the premier league instead of the division one. It means more games for arsenal and more opportunity to for me to see arsenal play. I love the champions league and on a wednesday or tuesday night when other teams are playing i'd rather be watching arsenal than any other team in the world. The mere thought of teams like madrid playing in grounds like newcastle is what their fans would want to kill for, and thats why most other fans envy the top four teams. At arsenal we've hosted every top european teams not in a friendly (which i'd still be proud of) but in competitive games and we've beaten every single one of them. My point is, when i pray that arsenal makes the champions league, i do so mainly from a selfish interest and not because i think it is better than one title or the other.


Great post De Times. Sums up exactly what it's like to be a fan. It's about hope and loving every moment you can watch your team. If it was just about winning trophies and glory then 80% of fans are wasting there time and money.

Not exactly a great post. De Times believe making profit is important as his guardian angle believes. In football it's more important to win things that represents pride, but Arsenal fans are driven by Arsene Wenger's phylosophy. When you sell Van Parsie or Nasri it has to 25, 30 or 40 million but when you buy a winger it has to be 12 million Gervinho.

Now a days I give a rats ass to all these though. Adios, see you guys before EURO. On my way to copa cabana.

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
karsene16 (IP Logged)
10 May, 2012 16:27
Wenger plays the value game:

why take a horse at odds of 2/1 with a 75% chance of winning when you can get one at 20/1 at 25% chance of winning?

Why buy a player for 20mil that gets you 15-20 goals/assists a season? When you can buy one at 10mil that will get you 8-15 goals/assists a season, who is young enough to improve and mould?

Arteta, Santos and Mertesacker were the first signings in a long time I thought, wow - Ready made players, and they cost the same as his normal buys. Even the Benayoun LOANED IN player was spooky.

I think the market approach has finally changed now our "young talents" Nasri and Cesc f*cked off. Wenger realizes players come and go when they want and this building a team from young thing will never finish.

What's needed now is a few more buys in attacking areas to get things on track.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: Should we give a monkey's about Champions League?
RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
10 May, 2012 17:03
No Karsene I think they knew pretty much exactly how it would go. It ewas brilliant marketing really putting the most positive spin possible on what they knew was going to be a difficult and potentially unpleasant situation.

Create some gallant new mission for the Arsenal and its supporters to embark upon, one that covered the real destination of our voyage from that point which was relative certainly to 1998-2005 mediocity and disappointment. But let's all put on brave face and get in touch with our Inner Peter Hill-Woods and tell ourselves and each other "Oh what a marvellous idea, and no one's ever done it before. How wonderfully gallant of us!" We were masking over our real uncertainties just as Mr. Hill-Wood and others running the Club were their real motivations.

But we persisted. After 2006 we would . By 2008 it was dominating England and Europe inevitably. By 2010 we would win the Premier League again eventually. Now its we maybe finally win the Europa League or sneak the Champions League if we do qualify as we almost certainly will.

So we have gone from imminently to inevitably to eventually to maybe finally. But I was saying in 2005 this was the path we were choosing to let them take the club down and was largely ignored or castigated for having the gall not to have the absolute faith in what the Club was doing or why or whether it would work.

Well I amy be no Moses (Cheers Merl), in fact I am definitely no moses, but I may just have been and may be right, and maybe you should just think about them possibility you may be wrong.


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