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The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 11:02

Now that we know he has pulled through I have to say that I thought he was brown bread, the emergency teams were obviously brilliant but was there a little more at play with regard to his recovery ?

Millions of people all praying that a man who had stopped breathing for at least 6 minutes possibly more would live and he has and there has been no talk of brain damage, which under those circumstances (I am not a medical professional) is surely rare, 6 minutes possibly more with no Oxygen to the brain can't be good ?!

Anyway, views.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: wildermorph (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 11:17

my view is that there has been no official statement regarding his health yet and threads should be aimed at continued support for Muamba rather than assumptions that he has already pulled through and avoided brain damage etc

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 11:18

all i've heard is that the next 24 hours are critical. So i'm not so sure all is ok yet.
Fingers crossed for him.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: RadioFreeArsenal (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 12:13

Hope and Pray. He is obviously a strong young man. He has that on his side. But he has been through a huge ordeal.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Padre Pio (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 12:14

Too early to make asny kind of judgement, six minutes is survivable. I had a friend who lost oxygen for over 30 minutes, he had partial brain damage, it took him ten years to get partial movement back



Arsenal is a top 16 European club that will remain a top 16 European club and the Emirates is tape-loop that will show the same drab movie for a decade.

Nothing will change except the ticket prices

Kroenke & Wenger are made for each other.

Arsenal’s not a football club. It’s just a business. Myles Palmer

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Eboractos (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 12:58

If collective prayer to an omnipotent and benevolent god really works could you just ask that stuff like this simply doesn't happen in the first place. Thanks.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 13:01

Agreed Eboractos.
Just seen confirmed on SSN that it was a cardiac arrest that caused it.
23 years old. Still can't believe it.
(Sm8)
Be strong Fabs. You can pull through.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Rockstaar (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 13:53

I'm just thankful for the human medical staff present at the stadium...Fabrice more than likely would ave died on the field if they weren't there



http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5066/verminator2.jpg
[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: flynchstone (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 14:03

Quote:
Rockstaar
I'm just thankful for the human medical staff present at the stadium...Fabrice more than likely would ave died on the field if they weren't there
Exactly. If muamba lives giving the credit to prayer is doing the quickly acting medics a disservice.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: tigerline (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 16:36

Quote:
flynchstone
Quote:
Rockstaar
I'm just thankful for the human medical staff present at the stadium...Fabrice more than likely would ave died on the field if they weren't there
Exactly. If muamba lives giving the credit to prayer is doing the quickly acting medics a disservice.

That's why I always add a parayer for the caregivers, too.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Gunners R Us (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 19:29

Quote:
flynchstone
Quote:
Rockstaar
I'm just thankful for the human medical staff present at the stadium...Fabrice more than likely would ave died on the field if they weren't there
Exactly. If muamba lives giving the credit to prayer is doing the quickly acting medics a disservice.

Just because someone thanks God for him being alright does not mean they are giving the medics a disservice

Why do some people perceive some things to be so black and white?

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 19:34

why do some people claim everything is down to gods will?
It's what they believe is right, i'd imagine.
I'm more for thanking the medics myself.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: eduardo (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 19:35

its reported that he was unable to breath on his own for over two hours
the first 24 hours are critical, but he aint out of the woods yet



*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 19:37

Over 2 hours.
Holy crap. That's not good at all.
Good luck Fabrice.
Be strong.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Rockstaar (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 19:41

I think it is black and white GRU

the thread said the power of collective prayer for instance..what is the suggestion of that?

I'm sure there were people from all faiths praying to their God for Muamba..which one answered the prayer?

for me it has nothing to do with religion but everything to do with the medical team at the stadium and in the ambulance that we all witnessed save his life

without them there would ave been only one other immediate outcome



http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5066/verminator2.jpg
[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/03/2012 19:42 by Rockstaar.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Gunners R Us (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 19:46

It is possible that one can thank "God's will" as well as thanking the medics. If you are religious, it is clearly not black and white

Some atheists just love to put religion, no matter which one, down at every given opportunity

If you don't believe in God's will, then why did you even bother typing in this thread when you know there are some who do.

Do and think what you want to think and let others do/ think what they want.

Simple.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Rockstaar (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 19:52

Quote:
If you don't believe in God's will, then why did you even bother typing in this thread when you know there are some who do.

That goes both ways doesn't it? this is not a religious forum mate and no topic is off limits to certain groups...anyone can post in any thread they feel fit

you have no problem talking about God's will whilst knowing that other people possibly don't see it the same way

Quote:
Do and think what you want to think and let others do/ think what they want.

I have no problem with that which is why I said "I'm thankful for the human medical team". I wasn't rude to anyone's views, just stated my own



http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5066/verminator2.jpg
[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 19:57

Yup. Rockys hit the nail on the head for me there.

If anything, i came into this thread to see if someone was preaching on a football forum.
(Sm102)
Glad to see it wasn't that one sided.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Gunners R Us (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 20:03

What you said above is a bit too simplistic. There have been some posts which might be read as a "put down" of religion, which is quite rude.

I just feel that in life, not just in this case, that too many people are quick to criticise those who have religious view when it is not necessary

For example, my uni has a Christian union. They do this toastie thing where they ask people to text a question about Christianity/God/etc and then they will come to you, answer it and give you a toastie. Sometimes they give out leaflets about this and other similar events.

What irritates me people who see this and complain and say "they are trying to convert me, they are everywhere, let them leave me alone". It happens all the time. If you don't want to be "converted", then quite simply ignore them. It is very easy. If they give you a leaflet say no thank you and carry on with your day. It is not hard.

I also have problems of people who get offended when their religion is mocked, but are all too happy to mock other religions.

There is a lot of unnecessary snides and problems with: - -atheism and religion, especially Christianity
- within one religion (protestants an Catholics for example)
- within different religions (Muslims v Christians and the bombings in Nigeria)

It is a joke. I am very please with the support everyone gave to Muamba, but IF I am being honest, from what I have seen in my 19years of living, I do not have positive views of the human race.

Greedy, selfish and destructive individuals. Controversial I know, but meh, I just hold a negative view of society.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Gunners R Us (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 20:04

Quote:
Philly the kid
Yup. Rockys hit the nail on the head for me there.
If anything, i came into this thread to see if someone was preaching on a football forum.
(Sm102)
Glad to see it wasn't that one sided.

It was hardly preaching was it...

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 20:06

....and so I discovered when I read the thread numb nuts!!

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Gööfle11 (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 20:13

You guys are worse than those w@#$%& on Twitter who are so obsessed with showing how much they care, that they attack other Tweeters fir daring to talk about something else.

Shut your mouths.



http://i.minus.com/ibh1xvc6mkPzx3.gif

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 20:16

No-ones online today, i'm bored.
Tough poop goofle.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Rockstaar (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 20:24

GRU...it seems you have as much issues with people that believe differently than you as you seem to think they have with you and your beliefs

one thing that we have in common is that we were all moved by what we witnessed on the pitch and want the best possible outcome for Muamba



http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5066/verminator2.jpg
[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Gunners R Us (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 20:28

Quote:
Rockstaar
GRU...it seems you have as much issues with people that believe differently than you as you seem to think they have with you and your beliefs

This is simply not true.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Rockstaar (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 20:34

oh sorry..misinterpreted your previous posts..fairplay then



http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5066/verminator2.jpg
[arsenalsigs.blogspot.com]

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Eboractos (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 20:57

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lt42qsBAz11r0go7xo1_500.jpg

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: eduardo (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 21:19

Cardiologist: Doctors can only wait on critical Muamba now
Published 12:22 18/03/12 By MirrorFootball
(1)Recommend (2)
.
Fabrice Muamba's doctors can only wait and see if he starts to show signs of recovery in the next 24 hours, a cardiologist said.

The Bolton midfielder remains in a critical condition in hospital today after collapsing during an FA Cup tie.

Muamba remains in 'critical condition'

The 23-year-old "remains anaesthetised" in intensive care at the London Chest Hospital after falling to the ground at White Hart Lane in front of millions of television viewers watching the sixth-round tie between Tottenham Hotspur and his club, Bolton Wanderers.

Dr Iqbal Malik of Hammersmith Hospital, told BBC Breakfast it was likely Muamba's collapse resulted from an abnormality he was probably born with that had not been picked up "despite the very aggressive screening programme that we do for professional athletes".

Data from London Ambulance Service showed a 25% survival rate once someone had suffered a cardiac arrest and been treated by ambulance crews, he added.

He said: "I think he's probably in a slightly better situation than that because what he got was immediate attention.

"The paramedics were there, the physios were there, and he got the defibrillator immediately and had the cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) given to him immediately.

"That meant he's got the best chance of actually having his brain intact as well as having his heart rhythm problems sorted out."

Dr Malik said hospital staff would have to stabilise the heart rhythm, support the blood pressure and cool the body.

He added: "The only thing we can do once we've done all that is to wait and see whether he's going to start making some signs of recovery in the next 24 or 48 hours. The key actually isn't the heart at the moment, it's the brain."

He conceded the situation was like a "timebomb", adding: "What exercise doesn't do is suddenly make it happen when it wasn't going to happen before. Of course it will bring it out, putting a strain on the system is always going to be doing that."

Before the match Muamba took to Twitter to express his excitement over the tie.

Using the username fmuamba, he tweeted: "Just reach white hart lane. £COYW lets have it now."

Just hours later, the scene on the pitch recalled memories of Cameroon's Marc Vivien-Foe who collapsed and died during a Confederations Cup match in 2003.

Fellow players took to Twitter to express their shock after his collapse, including Arsenal and England midfielder Jack Wilshere, Manchester United star Rio Ferdinand, England striker Wayne Rooney and Muamba's team-mate Stuart Holden.

Tottenham forward Rafael Van Der Vaart, who was on the pitch when Muamba collapsed, wrote: "Terrible what happened with Muamba during the game. We're all praying for him."

Phil Brown, former assistant manager at Bolton Wanderers, who witnessed Muamba's collapse, described yesterday's scenes as "alarming".

Mr Brown told BBC Breakfast: "If you witness something like we witnessed last night it takes it to the other end of the spectrum. It's very hard to believe what you're seeing in front of your own eyes."

He added: "There are a lot of religious players and to see them all almost crouching down and dropping to their knees and praying, it was quite shocking, to tell you the truth."

Discussing the checks that players are subjected to, he said: "The screening processes that we use at the top level should be and can be sufficient to try and eradicate this, but there's that side of life you just can't cater for. You just don't know when it's going to happen."

Premier League chief executive Richard Scudamore said: "The thoughts of the Premier League, its clubs and players are with Fabrice Muamba, his family and Bolton Wanderers.

"We would like to praise the players, match officials, coaching staff and medical teams of both clubs at White Hart Lane for their swift actions in attending Fabrice.

"The league would also like to commend the compassion shown by the fans of Bolton Wanderers and Tottenham Hotspur.

"We hope to hear positive news about Fabrice who is and has been a wonderful ambassador for the English game and the league at Arsenal, Birmingham City and Bolton Wanderers."

The Football Association (FA) also released a short statement, saying: "Our thoughts and prayers are with Fabrice Muamba and his family right now. A wonderful person."



*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Gunners R Us (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 21:21

Don't even want to give eboractos post any attention.

Yeah it seems like it is a waiting game eduardo. Fingers crossed.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: flynchstone (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 21:29

Quote:
Gunners R Us
Don't even want to give eboractos post any attention.
Yeah it seems like it is a waiting game eduardo. Fingers crossed.

1. Then mentioning it probably wasn't a great idea.
2. Eboractas' post makes a perfectly valid point. Belief in the power of prayer and God's divine plan contradict each other. Doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Just shows that world religions have a habit of confusing themselves.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: karsene16 (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 22:29

God allows or disallows whatever he wants, helps or doesn't help whoever/whatever he wants. There is a divine plan which cannot be interrupted at any cost. You can pray for small things but big things cannot be changed.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 22:33

Says your book.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: eduardo (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 22:34

but karsene will changes to small things not affect bigger things



*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: SaltnPeppah (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 23:02

[www.guardian.co.uk]

Medicine had to struggle into existence against the opposition of the Church which spent centuries prolonging human suffering with their stupid superstitious theories of disease.

Prayer only works in the minds of those believe in it. For the rest of us, it's nothing but childish, futile superstition. Personally I have no time for this nonsense.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Jack_is_the_truth (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 23:18

Quote:
karsene16
God allows or disallows whatever he wants, helps or doesn't help whoever/whatever he wants. There is a divine plan which cannot be interrupted at any cost. You can pray for small things but big things cannot be changed.

i dont agree with that

to know that is to know how God operates and how he thinks, i dont think anyone can claim to know that

plus what you consider to be big is relative



http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/jack-wilshere-goal-vs-marseille-a.gif http://164.177.157.12/img/teams/13.png
The future is now!!!!!!!

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Eboractos (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 23:50

Quote:
karsene16
You can pray for small things but big things cannot be changed.

If an event has two possible outcomes and followers of one religion pray for outcome A whilst followers of another religion pray for outcome B then what happens? Do they cancel each other out? Or is there some sort of ranking of gods' importance so that one takes precedence over another? If so can one god challenge another for the right to be the daddy?

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: karsene16 (IP Logged)
Date: 18 March, 2012 23:54

Quote:
eduardo
but karsene will changes to small things not affect bigger things

Big things - winning the lottery, changing your work, having a child, changing your wife lol.

relative Small things - paying a bill, moving office/department in work, finding a baby sitter, wife finding a new hobby.

not saying you pray and you will get but i've witnessed collective prayer used and accomplishing 'small things', 'big things' only happen if they were in your destiny I believe.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: SaltnPeppah (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 00:54

Now that we know he has pulled through I have to say that I thought he was brown bread, the emergency teams were obviously brilliant but was there a little more at play with regard to his recovery ?

As Goethe would say, there's nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: BIGSNOOP (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 07:29

I can't believe a pretty harmless thread been turned into a religous studies debate. I say credit to those who have taken the time to pray for muamba I too pray that he pulls through(Sm13)

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 08:03

you credit the religious then,
I still credit the medics more.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: 80'sGoona (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 10:45

Prayer isn't as simple as some people, understandably, make out.

Daniel Chapter 10

12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia (demonic spirit) withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.”

-----------------------------------

Matthew Chapter 17

14 And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying, 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic[c] and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. 16 So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him.”

17 Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.” 18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”

20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief;[d] for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. 21 However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.”[e]

----------------------

If you don't believe there's a complex spiritual side to life then prayer is going to seem like something pointless, as Ebratacos' post points out.

If you believe there's more at play then, while the medics clearly done a fantastic job, prayer still could have played it's part.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 11:35

You don't need to believe in god to have belief.
As an agnostic, I'm a believer. Just not in fictitious books. No offense.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: flynchstone (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 12:20

Quote:
BIGSNOOP
I can't believe a pretty harmless thread been turned into a religous studies debate. I say credit to those who have taken the time to pray for muamba I too pray that he pulls through(Sm13)
He said he believed prayer played a part in saving Muamba's life (assuming he pulls through). He then finished with "Anyway, views?". Views were given.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: karsene16 (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 12:25

I believe Prayer works more as a safeguard over evil than an event changer, I don't pray but if I was about to be shot or eaten by a lion I would call on Gods help to get me out of it. I would almost see it pointless to pray for anything to be given to me.

I didn't want to say this here but Muamba's fate has already been decided. The way the medics and doctors all pulled together leads me to believe there might be a positive outcome.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Gunners R Us (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 12:35

Quote:
80'sGoona

If you don't believe there's a complex spiritual side to life then prayer is going to seem like something pointless, as Ebratacos' post points out.

If you believe there's more at play then, while the medics clearly done a fantastic job, prayer still could have played it's part.

The thread should have ended after this. First class summary 80's goona.

Why people continue to state its futile rubbsh after this post bewilders me. Some of us have stated that we believe in prayer and if you don't then fair enough. Yet people still continue to dismiss it as rubbish and irrelevant.

Why continue when many of us have not only given medical priase but shown understanding to your stance on this?

The topic is dead, finished, dealt with. Move on.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Eboractos (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 12:42

80's Goona if the word of the bible is to be believed then the person you are praying to is the biggest mass murderer in history.
If you want to follow the word of the bible then according to Deuteronomy 13 it is now your duty to kill me. And my children. And the devoutly Christian couple on the opposite side of the road with the big cross in their window. Seems a bit odd but if it says it in the bible I guess you have no choice.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Gunners R Us (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 12:51

Quote:
Eboractos
80's Goona if the word of the bible is to be believed then the person you are praying to is the biggest mass murderer in history.
.

sigh

If you are not going to do research on Christianity or use wider reading examples of the Bible, then please, for the good of everyone in this forum, stop commenting.

This is to everyone.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: flynchstone (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 13:00

Quote:
Gunners R Us
Quote:
Eboractos
80's Goona if the word of the bible is to be believed then the person you are praying to is the biggest mass murderer in history.
.

sigh

If you are not going to do research on Christianity or use wider reading examples of the Bible, then please, for the good of everyone in this forum, stop commenting.

This is to everyone.
So you plan to win an argument by telling the other side to stop commenting? If Eboractos wants to discredit a book that claims God made one man, one woman who then had two sons and subsequently populated the earth as a valid source then I feel he's perfectly within his rights.Billy asked for views, he's getting views. Both sides. You can't just tell the other side to stop because it makes you feel uncomfortable.
This would be irony.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Eboractos (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 13:01

Quote:
Gunners R Us
sigh

If you are not going to do research on Christianity

Fear not, I know plenty about it having attended a school with a strong Christian influence from a young age.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 13:13

Quote:
Philly
why do some people claim everything is down to gods will?

Where did I say that Fabrice Muamba's recovery had anything to do with a God or a lack thereof ?
No I didn't did I, what I asked about was the power of prayer with regard to concentrated power of will and intent. I said "millions of people," not "millions of Christians" and I from London where there are Muslims, Hindu's, Sekhs, Christians and the many derivatives thereof all mix together so my question had nothing to do with one God or another.

Science has already proved that subatomic particles are influenced by the observer. That when subatomic particles (electrons for example) are not being observed they operate in a wave function but the second you introduce devices to observe those particles they collapse down to a particle function and prayer for me is no more than attempting to alter subatomic reality by way of will and intent and I'm not sure if you all recognise the levity of this discovery ?!

What this means and what was conveniently left out of the scientific conclusion of the fact is my own observation which is that subatomic particles therefore do not EVER take material form until they are influenced by the will of an observer in my opinion destroying the Athiest argument by proving that before a universe or any matter can take material form it must first be OBSERVED and it's the "observer" that some people call God.

Scientific experiments on subatomic particles has shown from the beginning that different scientists can carry out the same experiments and equal conditions and come up with wildly different results and at the inception of the application as a science was a huge problem.

In order that a scientific study may become a scientific fact three independent scientists must produce the same results under the same conditions. In the end the conclusion that they drew was that the belief of the individual scientists with regards to what they individually thought the experiment would show was influencing the experiments. Thereby showing that we influence subatomic reality with our intention, will, expectation and belief all of the time meaning by virtue of the fact that we can serve the same function as God as our intention, will, expectations and beliefs are collapsing subatomic particles from a wave function to a particle function thereby turning noting into something all day every day of our lives as conscious observers.

We are not generally sure that there is a God to answer the prayer and those that pray do so in hope not in surety and are therefore unconsciously attempting to provide the answer/cure from within rather than without but very rarely recognise the fact. The fact that even those that profess to "believe" are as plagued by doubt as the average Atheist is also hardly acknowledged, that doubt is also present in prayer and unconscious understanding seems to be that if God won't, then maybe we can which is why people generally choose to pray in groups.

Prayer is as much about trying to find God internally as it is to trying to connect to something externally, it's just that most people don't think that much about prayer or anything else because their lives are plagued by obligations of their Karma (actions) and when these new discoveries in science contradict the status quo and established ideas then science quickly becomes a religious doctrine.
If these new discoveries in quantum science were taught to children in school as I just described them to you then every child would be interested in science because it would be like telling them that they are "using the force" every day.

Quote:
wildermouth
my view is that there has been no official statement regarding his health yet and threads should be aimed at continued support for Muamba rather than assumptions

And my view is that I am free to hold any view I choose and the last time I checked we were not in China, so f'uck off....how's that for a perspective?!

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 13:21

[quote Gunners R Us]

Why do some people perceive some things to be so black and white?[/quote]



[quote Billythekid][quote=Philly]why do some people claim everything is down to gods will?[/quote]

I was answering a question with a question, being philosophical.
Chill Bill!

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Eboractos (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 13:35

Quote:
Billythekid
If these new discoveries in quantum science were taught to children in school as I just described them to you then every child would be interested in science

If they were taught the way you just described them the world would be a messy place. You might want to check what levity actually means for starters.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 13:52

Quote:
Billythekid
.
destroying the Athiest argument by proving that before a universe or any matter can take material form it must first be OBSERVED and it's the "observer" that some people call God.

Doesn't that make you your god?
Being agnostic, that's pretty much my belief.
If everyone believed in themselves instead of a "god", the world would be a faaaaar better place IMHO.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 14:05

More to the point Bill, as a Christian, isn't it blasphemous to say such things?!

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Eboractos (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 14:57

Quote:
flynchstone
If Eboractos wants to discredit a book that claims God made one man, one woman who then had two sons and subsequently populated the earth as a valid source then I feel he's perfectly within his rights.

You would have thought that if some people find the idea that we are descended from ape like creatures filthy and disrespectful, they could at least come up with a better alternative than being the product of incest.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 14:58

(Sm22)
Succinctly put Ebo!!

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Gunners R Us (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 18:01

Quote:
Eboractos
Quote:
flynchstone
If Eboractos wants to discredit a book that claims God made one man, one woman who then had two sons and subsequently populated the earth as a valid source then I feel he's perfectly within his rights.

You would have thought that if some people find the idea that we are descended from ape like creatures filthy and disrespectful, they could at least come up with a better alternative than being the product of incest.

I thought someone who went to a christian school will be aware not too take everything in the bible as 100% literal

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: DotComrade (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 18:11

Thanks to hardworking medical professionals, amen.



Something profound goes here...

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Xeon32 (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 18:55

The title of the thread is so misguided as to defy belief.


Ascribing the successful revival of Muamba to the 'power' of intercessory prayers reeks of ignorance at best, if not downright wicked.


Thankfully, there are yet more enlightened minds in this forum who would readily acknowledge the debt of gratitude Muamba owes to the perfusionists, phlebotomists, neurologists, anesthesiologists, physician assistants and many other medical personnel who have treated him.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Eboractos (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 19:09

Quote:
Gunners R Us
I thought someone who went to a christian school will be aware not too take everything in the bible as 100% literal

Seeing as it's quite clearly all bullshit I don't take a single thing in the bible literally.
What I learnt was that people tend to cherry pick which bits should be taken literally and obeyed i.e. the bits that suit them, and which bits they would prefer to gloss over and pretend must mean something else e.g. all the contradictions, murder, rape, human sacrifice etc.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: 80'sGoona (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 20:24

Quote:
Eboractos
80's Goona if the word of the bible is to be believed then the person you are praying to is the biggest mass murderer in history.
If you want to follow the word of the bible then according to Deuteronomy 13 it is now your duty to kill me. And my children. And the devoutly Christian couple on the opposite side of the road with the big cross in their window. Seems a bit odd but if it says it in the bible I guess you have no choice.

I'm not trying to turn this into another religious thread but certain things need to be addressed. Eboractos, deuteronomy 13 is often misinterpreted due to people not taking the bible in its entirety.

That whole chapter God is telling them to kill the people, some of who claimed to be 'prophets', who were telling them they should "go after other gods". If you don't believe in God, spirits, demons etc then it won't mean much to you. But basically, you had tribes back then who worshiped other gods (demonic gods) who would require the people to sacrifice humans. For example, Molech, who would require the people to burn their children alive. Certain practices obviously went on in Egypt aswell, where the children of Israel were held as slaves for about 400 years. If you're around certain groups for long enough, sooner or later certain ways of life become the norm for you, that's what God was ensuring didn't happen to His people when He told them to kill whoever was spreading false prophecies that they should serve other gods.

So unless you're saying you cause your children to walk through fire in sacrifice to a demonic entity, you don't need to worry. And anyway, that was the old testament, before Jesus Christ, before salvation and redemption, before the price for sins had been paid on the cross. So even if there were still tribes today sacrificing their children to whichever god, the option of redemption would still be available to them. If there were tribes like that today, it would be us the people, not God, calling for them to be wiped out.

On the issue of incest, leviticus 18 deals with it, it was basically outlawed. Up until then, there was clearly no other way humanity was going to grow. If people see that as twisted so be it. Some see the Bible's account of creation as ridiculous, some see the theory of evolution as ridiculous. People won't see eye to eye on that until the end.

[www.independent.co.uk] I think science proves the existence of God personally. Time will tell.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Eboractos (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 20:38

Quote:
80'sGoona
But basically, you had tribes back then who worshiped other gods (demonic gods) who would require the people to sacrifice humans. For example, Molech, who would require the people to burn their children alive.

So when your god asks for human sacrifice in the bible it's only metaphorical, but if it's Molech we're talking about then it's ok to take it literally and kill his followers. Double standards at its murderous worst.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 20:50

Quote:
80'sGoona

[www.independent.co.uk] I think science proves the existence of God personally. Time will tell.

I think it disproves it. But, there you go.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: 80'sGoona (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 21:17

Nowhere in the bible does God endorse human sacrifice if you read it properly.

The scientific view atheist hold have too many coincidences for me to believe Philly. And the way atheism/science accounts for all of the order in the universe and everything in it doesn't hold water without God in the equation. To others it does.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: karsene16 (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2012 23:09

Quote:
Eboractos
Quote:
Gunners R Us
I thought someone who went to a christian school will be aware not too take everything in the bible as 100% literal

Seeing as it's quite clearly all bullshit I don't take a single thing in the bible literally.
What I learnt was that people tend to cherry pick which bits should be taken literally and obeyed i.e. the bits that suit them, and which bits they would prefer to gloss over and pretend must mean something else e.g. all the contradictions, murder, rape, human sacrifice etc.

It not clearly all BS, Jesus' words teach us how to be better people. if anyone does want to take out bits from the Bible, start there.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Simon68 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 01:31

If I was in Fabrice Muamba's position would I :-

a) want there to be excellent medical attention on hand or,

b) want a priest standing over me offering prayers for my recovery?

If I chose b), I can pretty safely guarantee that the priest would be the last person I saw before nothing.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Big Guhnz (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 03:28

what would a fly think about us on the internet making threads?

what would its comprehension be on religion if it had one im sure we as humans would say they got it confused ...bless em

god gave man the power to comprehend being a man not god or make judgments on what god is or is not but that does not mean you cant have a relationship with god and can not take part in the act of prayer

i respect all religion you are free to believe in your own way what you want



So pray,have hope,faith that this man will get better back on his feet and smiling

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: SaltnPeppah (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 03:40

Everyone is free to believe in whatever they want, no problem with that. However if you're going to start a discussion about the power of prayer on a public forum, you should expect to come under attack.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 07:21

Quote:
80'sGoona

The scientific view atheist hold have too many coincidences for me to believe Philly. And the way atheism/science accounts for all of the order in the universe and everything in it doesn't hold water without God in the equation. To others it does.

I'm kind of in the middle matey. Agnostic.
I believe there's something more to consciousness than we understand. However religion purports to be all knowing, but is slowly back tracking and twisting words to fit the facts as they're discovered. Science however admits it knows nothing and simply wants to learn.
I know which I prefer.
Btw I went to the Salvation Army for 13 years and was raised to kneel and pray on my bed as a child. If the bible wasn't so ridiculously fictitious, I may have stayed christian.
Nothing wrong with people trying to better themselves. I just prefer to believe in myself and leave the scientific door of learning open.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: karsene16 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 08:23

Many believe we are partly God and Prayer/meditation strengthens the connection.

I see it as God knew Muamba was going to collapse and made sure the right people and medical staff were attending the match. Also made them sharply aware of the danger because players fall over on a pitch all the time. God rarely lets people faint without someone being there to break the fall. (Sm14)



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 08:53

That's an interference of free will isn't it? Altering many peoples lives to ensure they attend a match for the sake of one person?
I'm agnostic too but I don't believe that a higher power interferes at all I'm our lives. Picking and choosing who to help and who to ignore is not just or moral no matter how you look at it.

We are all free to do as we like, and no one is compelled to do anything by a divine force.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: karsene16 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 10:40

we will have to agree to disagree, It is said God allowed a contrasting spirit to world, the moral thing to do would be never allow it, just like the forbidden fruit.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 10:54

Quote:
Philly
More to the point Bill, as a Christian, isn't it blasphemous to say such things?!


Are you illiterate or willfully ignorant, I am not a Christian and I thought that I made that clear enough ?!

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 10:59

PS: If any of you are attempting to rebut my argument then you are trying to rebut scientific facts, you recognise this and so rather than make it about the facts you make it about the man............weak !

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 11:04

Quote:
Ebortwat
You might want to check what levity actually means for starters.

Levity: the treatment of a serious matter with humor or in a manner lacking due respect

I suggest that you think before you speak or at least check a dictionary first yourself before making yourself look like a fool.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 11:07

I.E People do not recognise or respect that the issue is so important.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 11:22

Quote:
Billythekid
Quote:
Philly
More to the point Bill, as a Christian, isn't it blasphemous to say such things?!


Are you illiterate or willfully ignorant, I am not a Christian and I thought that I made that clear enough ?!

Speaking about a scientific angle, and saying you're not Christian are 2 entirely different things.
It's not my place to tell you what you believe, nor to extrapolate your beliefs from a war and peace sized post. Sorry if my presumption that you may be Christian was wrong. Sounded like you were trying to prove the existance of god through science to me.
If you want us to know what you believe, don't leave it for us to figure out.
Illiterate? No. Psychic, certainly not.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 20/03/2012 11:35 by Philly the kid.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 13:05

Quote:
Philly
Sounded like you were trying to prove the existance of god through science to me.

I was Philly you are right about that, but me believing that all consciousness is one and that oneness is what religious people call God does not make me a Christian, a Muslim or a Hindu.

I think that all of these belief systems are relevant and I find it amazing that the assumptions which Man has made about this connection from a time when there was no science to prove or disprove the assumption are being proved today by science and it is my belief that science will eventually lead us back to that faith/assumption.

I also believe that I was in no way cryptic about my point of view, it was other people who interpreted it as they saw fit obviously. Moreover the point of view was not about me it was just about the perspective itself but others have somehow made this about me rather than the facts because they cannot rebut the scientific facts.

So as to make it clear, I am the consciousness of the entire universe, it is me and I am it.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 13:10

druid then?
(Sm6)
I'm in agreement with most of that.
All but the part where science leads back to religion.
I think religions will twist their words to make it sound like they agreed the whole time.
Hopefully, we will find a universal way to mould a new stance somewhere between the 2.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 13:17

I think Philly has a point in that main steam religions retrospectively interpret their texts as science helps us evolve our understanding of the world and universe.
The main problem I have with organised religion is their concept of morality and criteria for admission to an afterlife which no sane person would call just and moral.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Gööfle11 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 13:38

Could you make a new thread to discuss religious comic books together.



http://i.minus.com/ibh1xvc6mkPzx3.gif

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 13:47

[quote]All but the part where science leads back to religion.
I think religions will twist their words to make it sound like they agreed the whole time. [quote=Philly]


(Sm164) I said faith not religion Philly, for the umpteenth time. Religion for me is the dogma of faith and I don't need to be told by a priest who I am or am not and so I do not follow a religion.

Zainy, the second law of thermodynamics shows that energy cannot die it is transferred from one state into another, morality and the so called criteria for admission to "Heaven" are doctrines and dogma stemming from religion.
Consciousness will continue for all existence because conscious observation creates the material world, you will endure but then maybe your actions here will denote the level of your conscious awareness in the next experience, I don't know, no one does but what I do know is that it never ever stops.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 13:59

Billy, I'm trying to generalise.
Very hard to do that while using you as the sole example.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: 80'sGoona (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 18:30

Quote:
Philly the kid
druid then?
I think religions will twist their words to make it sound like they agreed the whole time.
Hopefully, we will find a universal way to mould a new stance somewhere between the 2.

Not standing up for organised religion at all. But still, Jesus actually did talk about the topic now referred to as quantum physics. There's quite a lot of it on the bible.

Dont worry tom, football's back tomorrow so this thread will be over soon.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 18:39

Quote:
80'sGoona

Dont worry tom, football's back tomorrow so this thread will be over soon.

Thank fu(k for that.
My head hurts!
(Sm128)

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: 80'sGoona (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 18:41

I can get back to 'bump'ing the '9 points behind Spurs' thread.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 18:45

It's a huge leap to belive that bit about quantum physics. I've seen the arguments for this and is a massive massive leap.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Simon68 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 19:25

Besides, what does tweeting "I'm praying for you, Fabrice." or words to that effect actually say?

Fabrice Muamba was unconscious on a life support machine at the time. So he won't have been aware of it.

It says to me that it is said more for the person tweeting than Muamba himself.

I bet the only time the likes of Ferdinand and Rooney ever say a prayer is at weddings and funerals when they feel obliged to.

 
Re: The power of collective prayer (Muamba)
Posted by: Gunners R Us (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 23:32

I can't beliebe this thread was still going strong.
I missed out towards the end

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