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Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
23 March, 2017 08:21
Trump junior takes a quote out of context Here

Instead of quoting what the Mayor said after the bombing he takes a quote from months before the bombing



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Goofle (IP Logged)
24 March, 2017 08:34
You really think he was responding to the tweet as it was posted in response to an Islamic terror attack? Like, you really think that?

Anyway, I'll save my outrage for the killer, the politicians and portion of the public that has chosen to embrace tolerance as a vice.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
24 March, 2017 11:38
UK Muslim Leaders condem th attack



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Goofle (IP Logged)
24 March, 2017 15:16
But never the faith itself. Islam obviously requires reform, and many brave people speak on the subject.

Condemning people who would probably consider them Kafir isn't really going to change anything.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
24 March, 2017 15:52
First you make people be Muslim, then you condemn them for not being the right kind of Muslim



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Ares (IP Logged)
24 March, 2017 17:07
Goofle I can say right now.

My faith is Cats

I must tell you. I have just had a very clear vision. So clear and bright.

I must reach out over the web of things and Slap, Slap, Slap your face with a Tennis Racket. Slap Slap Slappity Slap. Slap!

If I actually went through with that.

Would you say....

OMG His Religion is Terrible.
Look what it made him do.
He has been brainwashed by Cats.


OMG The Cats Do Not Denounce This Behaviour.

They do not speak.

Ban Cats. Zero Tolerance. Etc. Etc.


I think I might just do that actually.

So help me God If you laugh at my Religion I will have to invoke the claw of Ca Tu.


People who say they do terrible things because of >Religious Theory< are telling you a story.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/03/2017 17:15 by Ares.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
celine dion (IP Logged)
24 March, 2017 19:57
Islamic Extremism has its basis in economic matters. this is what scholars will say in 100 years time.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Goofle (IP Logged)
25 March, 2017 14:28
Islamic extremism has its basis in the words within the religion, then other elements within society that encourage it. But the religion itself is the main issue.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
celine dion (IP Logged)
25 March, 2017 16:01
Ok but how come in let's say 1990 you could count significant globally threatening Islamic extremists on the fingers of one hand.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Goofle (IP Logged)
25 March, 2017 16:19
Because they didn't have the same money. I don't disagre with you that terrorists have been funded and wars have been started which resulted in an increase, but the ideology remains the same. And caused many issues around the globe before 1990, and still has problems that are unrealted to terrorist activity.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Ares (IP Logged)
25 March, 2017 17:22
http://writingontheweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Infographics-by-KROMKRATHOGjpg.jpg





http://images.tutorvista.com/content/gravitation/force-on-small-area.jpeg




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 25/03/2017 23:43 by Ares.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
SandyB (IP Logged)
25 March, 2017 22:59
Reading about the background of the last London terrorist looks like another guy lost in life struggle, depressed or who knows what involved in gangster kinda activity then converted to Muslim. Then went on to do something biggie...
So these ISIS or extremist folks look like providing a platform to these nut cases. Not sure what religion gotta do with this. Do you think these folks read half of the religious books?

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Padre Pio (IP Logged)
25 March, 2017 23:25
Clearly he was disaffected, not an immigrant, not born a Muslim, possibly suffered racism. Probably converted in prison. Unlikely he had much contact with Isis and that they organised it, he probably decided to do it in their name. ISIS has no real idelogy that is recongnisable to the majority of the world's Muslims. Islam is no more logical, or illogical than any other major religion. The Bible is full of blood thirsty calls and intolerance.
The Bible and the Koran can be interprted any way you like, thus it was used to defend 19th Century slavery, and some people use it to justify hate crime against gays, or women who have had an abortion. I dont hear any calls for all Christians to be banned



- until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Goofle (IP Logged)
26 March, 2017 11:07
Patterns do exist. Trends are real. It's not bigoted in any way to notice them and speak about them. I'm not calling for a ban on Muslims or any state action to be taken against them.

I want a reformation within the faith and for people to be allowed to speak frankly about the issues. But instead we talk about "not all" and islamophobia.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
SuperRob (IP Logged)
29 March, 2017 19:09
I half agree with Goofle on the cause, but not the solution. Islam (in this case, but this equally applies to Christianity and Judaism) I think is probably the main cause of extremism, rather than economics or poverty (sub-Saharan Africa is much poorer but doesn't have the same problem with extremism). The other part of the cause which is intrinsically linked to the first is politics and government (or rather the lack of). this is because the lack of strong government or institutions allows the religious narrative to be the primary one. The solution however isn't to reform Islam. It's to lessen the extent to which people identify with the 3 inherently violent religious ideologies.

We have to understand that things like Religion, Nation and Race are not real, they are fictional stories that humans make up to create large groups to enable cooperation based on a shared identity. This also creates "outgroups", made up of people who subscribe to different identities and believe in different stories. It's true that Islam's story actively encourages violence towards outgroups in the same way that the stories of Christianity and Judaism do. And it's the same thing that the @#$%&'s did, or that Trump does. Create an identity get a group of people to buy into the story you're selling and then tell them that an outgroup wants to destroy them

But in the West, people moved beyond Religious stories as their primary identity, they went beyond their Christian identity and put more credence in other stories. So if you identify as British first and Christian second rather than the other way around, the values that the British have told themselves are an important part of being British counter the violence of the Christian stories.

When we were a fundamental Christian society (I wouldn't call it a "Nation" back then, because Nations aren't real physical things and "British" wasn't the primary identity of the people living in what we now think of as "Britain"), we were fighting crusades across the world to try and convert anyone to Christianity and they killed anyone who resisted. In the 18th and 19th centuries a British identity took over, we told ourselves that the British are fair minded capitalists who also happen to be superior to other nationalities, and that led to the creation of the Empire where we conquered other Nations (notice how we're now fighting other Nations rather than other Religions like in the crusades) because we told ourselves the story of British power and superiority.

On the other hand, many of the Middle Eastern countries that have problems with Religious extremism have Religion as their primary story, their fundamental identity if you like. In a large part this is because the Saudi royal family encourages religious fundamentalism in order to retain power and control and therefore doesn't offer any alternative narrative but it's also because there is a lack of strong institutions that can create other types of identities and tell meaningful stories based on non-violent values that people can subscribe to.

It's important to note that people are always a combination of several identities at the same time and it's this combination that defines how the group will act. For example, 2 of the largest Islamic nations are Indonesia and Malaysia, but there isn't as much extremist Islam there because they also have strong National identities that promote different values that people associate with more.

So reforming Islam isn't necessary, just as we didn't need to reform Christianity to stop fighting crusades. And it's the wrong solution because it's unrealistic to hope to achieve it. The easier but equally effective solution is to find a way of creating alternative identities in those few "Islam first" countries that promote different values. In the West we have a few - National ones, democracy and capitalism that are all more important to the majority of westerners than any religion. In most cases, democracy has been the most successful narrative that people can subscribe to that generally stops violent destructive ideas. Of course we have had a few wars to try and convert countries to democracy, but millions of people protested those and it's been widely regarded as a mistake and since Iraq we've been much more cautious about going to war to bring about regime change abroad.

On a related point, what's interesting to note about the current state of the western world, is the emergence of a global identity and the inevitable conflict between that group (an identity that I subscribe to that is often referred to as the "global elite" or "liberal elite") and those who identify more with an individual nation (aka "Nationalists" or "Populists"). And again, both of these groups are just fictional stories, one being summed up as "to progress we need to integrate and connect more people from all over the world" and the other being "things were better in the past when our Nation (America, or Britain, or France or whoever) was strong and great and we need to go back to that".

The thing is that only one of these competing identities can win, because the problems that we are trying to deal with at the moment are global ones. They can't be solved on a national scale, they have to be tackled on a global scale. The most obvious example of this is Climate change. One country can't solve climate change on it's own, it will take all countries working together to fix it. And notice how Nationalists are the ones who are most likely to deny that Climate change is a problem and Globalists are the ones most likely to think it is a problem? Trump refuses to accept climate change is a problem because as a Nationalist his group has no solution to it.

Now climate change is a long term threat, not an imminent one. I use it because it's an easy example to understand. The more pressing challenge is the fact that the economy has become a global one rather than a national one. This gives all countries challenges around how they fit into this global system when some of their citizens have successfully adapted to it (think London finance industry) and others haven't (think mining or manufacturing in the UK). Sure you can try to solve it by isolating yourself, stopping immigration and putting trade barriers up, but remember this is a Global challenge, so a single nation can't solve it on its own. So these policies won't suddenly make materials mined in Wales cheaper than those mined in China. If every country in the world decided that they all wanted national economies and not to be part of a global economy, then yes these "populist" policies would be the correct ones. But they would also limit human progress.

Throughout the course of human history, the tendency has been, on average, to come together and cooperate in ever larger groups, by forming new identities and stories which allow us to solve bigger and bigger problems. That's why we've gone from Families, to Tribes, to Villages, to Towns, to Regions, to Countries. And we're in the process of going from Countries to Continents or perhaps we'll go straight from Countries to Planets. Sure there have been setbacks and backlashes, which usually result in war, but the overall tendency has been one of progress through greater cooperation.

And that's why the only thing that can work is a global identity, global government and global society. Otherwise we'll either end up killing ourselves in a wars between our ever larger groups and outgroups or we'll stop trying to cooperate and ignore problems that will eventually cause our extinction.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Goofle (IP Logged)
30 March, 2017 15:27
I can't think of anything worse than a global government.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
SuperRob (IP Logged)
04 April, 2017 21:21
I'd guess that's because you're probably thinking it would look similar to a national government, but be on a global scale. At this point, none of us (humans living in 2017) are in any position to even think of what global government looks like with any certainty, let alone judge whether or not it's a good idea.

It may or may not be a democracy.

It may or may not be made up of politicians.

It might not have any human employees.

Maybe everything is decided by referenda or choices that pop up on your smartphone. Then resources are allocated by a computer to local groups of people depending on what they voted for based on a set of rules (like make sure no one goes hungry and life expectancy is maximised). E.g. 20 people on a street in London use their government app to choose to spend 10 credits on resurfacing their road. The next day some people turn up and resurface the street using the tax dollars from a tech company from silicon valley. Another 20 people on a street in Nairobi use the same app to choose to spend 10 credits on planting some trees on their street and the next day some people turn up and plant some trees using the tax pounds of London's finance industry.

When people like me say "Global government" people tend to get freaked out because they imagine a President of the world and a world parliament etc. But in my mind global government really means shared global resources with very local decision making and a completely distributed power structure.

Or most likely it's something completely different, I have no idea what it will look like and I'll probably never know because I'll be dead by the time it happens - but I'm pretty confident it will happen, its the logical next step to the past 70,000 years of human history.

But I still have no confidence that I can guess how the successful version of this global society will look. Just like prehistoric tribal people wouldn't have been able to guess that we would have parliamentary democracies or capitalism or communism or that 1 person could rule over millions of people, we can't even imagine what the future human societies will look like.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2017 21:44 by SuperRob.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Goofle (IP Logged)
05 April, 2017 18:43
Less government is the best government. Perhaps no government but I'm not sold on that.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
SuperRob (IP Logged)
23 April, 2017 11:57
Depends what you mean by less government, if you study history, you'll see that governments are necessary to sustain societies that contain large numbers of individuals.

Before capitalism and democracy existed, humans still had governments, whether they were religions or monarchies or tribal societies, they all have governments. Even large cooperative ape societies (with more than 100 individuals) have governments (usually dictatorships).

Governments of whatever form, enforce the rules and values by which large groups of people cooperate. Without large scale cooperation, we couldn't accomplish the economic activity needed to sustain the number of people that currently live on Earth. Governments don't usually decide the values and rules by which people cooperate (despite what it may seem on the surface in the short term) but they are the mechanism we have come up with to enforce those values. It's usually culture that decides the values, which is why you see that laws change based on cultural norms (eg gay marriage became allowed by law after it became culturally acceptable, regulation on banker bonuses were enforced after it became culturally unacceptable for a small group to be paid so much when they had such a big impact on the whole society)

We could go back to having little or no government, but then cooperative systems will fail and exploitation of the powerless majority will be rampant. A good example of this is the East India company. Another example would be the slave trade which came about for purely economic reasons and was justified by ideological reasons later (AKA racism). The original slavers were not racist, they were motivated by money, were allowed to do it by a lack of governmental oversight and later invented reasons to justify slavery which became ingrained in the culture and therefore became law. It was only after the culture changed, did the laws change.

Government isn't something that a group of people decided we needed in the 19th century and then consciously set up. Government has evolved as the nature of human society has evolved over the last 70,000 years. And as such governmental systems are subject to natural selection. Different parts of the world have tried different forms of government over that time period, and the ones that profit the largest number of people are the ones that tend to survive in the long run. Currently national, capitalist governments are providing the most "progress" to their populations as a collective. Whether democracy or dictatorships are winning out is a matter for debate. Subjectively it appears as though individuals who live in democracies are better off, but that is my judgement as someone who has been conditioned to believe in democracy, so I'm not sure. The Chinese people I know seem to have the same belief in their undemocratic system so only time will tell which one is naturally selected in the long term.

This is why I think that global government will necessarily be the next form of government, because national governments don't have answers to the type of problems humans will need to solve for their collective survival as a species that is more and more connected on a global scale. Nations that choose not to participate (like Iran and North Korea) will be left behind until they either face internal revolutions or they will be invaded and forced to participate by the rest of the world who will see them as an existential threat. In the same way that nomadic and tribal people are currently either choosing to participate in "modern" life, or are being forced to by national governments.

I have no idea whether global government will be a good thing for humans or other conscious beings on an individual level (seems doubtful given the suffering we have wreaked on animals and groups of humans throughout history in the name of collective progress of humankind), but I am pretty certain that it will be the only system that can provide that collective progress which seems to win out every time. Therefore I think it has to be the inevitable next evolution of how we govern ourselves.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
Goofle (IP Logged)
23 April, 2017 12:47
As said in the other thread, I come at this from a place of ethics and morality not necessarily practice. Since we haven't really had a free market stateless society, I can't argue that I know it would work. But morally I fundamentally disagree with the idea of government.

 
Re: Trump junior a disgrace for goading London Mayor
SuperRob (IP Logged)
23 April, 2017 15:07
We have. It didn't end well.

The european Imperial colonies of the 19th century were set up by private businesses and they ran the countries they operated in as free market enterprises with no regulation. In the end they were so corrupt and immoral that the companies like the East India and the voc had to be nationalised. Not to mention the entire slave trade which was born out of free market ungoverned capitalism.

I think maybe our understanding of what government actually means is different.


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