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TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: karsene16 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 08:33







http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/karsene/wilshere.jpg?t=1376646952

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 11:48

Whilst certainly not the anti Christ of recreational drugs, cannabis isn't a benign drug, and deaths have resulted from the use of marijuana if not directly as a result of the drug ie. psychotic episodes from cannabis use and from road deaths whilst intoxicated etc.

I can't see how legalisation would improve society but rather create another burden on health services such as that created by alcohol and tobacco.
That said I wouldnt be a vehement apposer either.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: karsene16 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 12:02

i believe cannabis can cause mental illness is some people, someone from my old school committed suicide under the influence of it.



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Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 12:38

True. I've worked in a psychiatric hospital and a good few patients were in for marijuana induced psychosis. It definitely has mood altering effects.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Ares (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 16:01

the way the earth moves around the sun produces very severe mood altering effects which can affect hundreds of millions of people simultaneously.

The way someone speaks to you can also can have a very immediate mood altering effect as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/03/2012 16:05 by Ares.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Shane (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 16:23

It's much more carcinogenic is it not?

Anyways that sh*t about killin brain cells isn't a myth neither. I started a course two years and for the first week I literally had to tell this stoner bloke what my name was everyday cuz he either forgot or wasn't learning it in the first place.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 16:27

We're talking about pharmacologically enduced mood alteration Ares. Not even in the same ballpark.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 16:45

It's carcinogenic alright. But compared to cigarettes it's not clear which is worse. Some studies suggest its less carcinogenic.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 16:52

Long term effects of marijuana abuse on the brain is still controversial and there hasn't been any conclusive studies to show us what that entails. But short term has been studied and it's reasonably well documented that it effects perception, coordination, concentration and short term memory in the adverse direction.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Padre Pio (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 23:07

Beer and fags kill more. Alcohol causes depression, wife beating and murder, dont know the details for pot



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Nothing will change except the ticket prices

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Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2012 23:12

I'd agree padre. Although not nearly as well researched alcohol is a huge huge problem and definitely affects society worse.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 21 March, 2012 12:30

This thread has been nothing but a steady stream of pure conjecture, there is not one recorded case of death from the use of Cannabis and just because someone kills themselves does not mean it has anything to do with the substance and substance abuse is a sign of more deep underlying problem.

Pollution in London alone kills 4000 people every year, so according to most of the above logic, ban cars.

Dogs attack thousands of people every year, so ban dogs.

In the US one of the biggest killers is steak, choking, it's also carcinogenic, ban steak.

Alcohol kills hundreds of thousands every year, ban alcohol.

Prescription Drugs Kill 300 Percent More Americans than Illegal Drugs, a report by the Florida Medical Examiners Commission has concluded that prescription drugs have outstripped illegal drugs as a cause of death, ban them.

Cars kill thousands of people every year across the world, ban cars.

Stress related illness from work kills thousands of people every year, ban working.

Fattening foods kill thousands every year, ban fast food.

AND ON AND ON AND ON.....

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 21 March, 2012 12:32

Pure hypocrisy !

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Gööfle11 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 March, 2012 12:45

I have been closer to death smoking pot than I have ever been whilst drinking alcohol. Serious freak outs and all that.

Don't watch Ninja Scroll whilst tripping.



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Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 21 March, 2012 14:11

Billy, that is simply not true. The no recorded deaths you may be referring to is probably related to direct lethal toxicity from smoking marijuana but thats a very narrow view of causality. Extensive European research has shown marijuana use to increase likelyhood of road traffic fatalities and have documented cases of marijuana related deaths of same.

Prescription drugs has known Side effects and toxicity levels, but they are primarily used to the benefit of health for individuals and marijuana is not so to compare them does not make sense.

Just because there are other causes for death in the world doesn't make marijuana any better.
Marijuana is used primarily as a recreational drug, working and transport are necessities in most peoples lives.
Steak is a food so again the comparisons don't make much logical sense to me.

I would definitely get on board with a alcohol ban though.
I wouldn't be outraged if they legalised marijuana but I certainly won't advocate for it either. It definitely does have a role to play in modern medicine though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/03/2012 18:22 by Zainy.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Shane (IP Logged)
Date: 21 March, 2012 16:48

Quote:
Padre Pio
Alcohol causes depression, wife beating and murder, dont know the details for pot

Someone can't handle his booze.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2012 01:45

Quote:
Zainy
Prescription drugs has known Side effects and toxicity levels, but they are primarily used to the benefit of health for individuals and marijuana is not so to compare them does not make sense.

With respect that sentence didn't make much sense. Prescription drugs have no medical benefit's they relieve symptoms, pain relief is not a health benefit, nor is sedation and if you are arguing that sedation is a health benefit then use of Cannabis is good for your "health" by definition and which also has "known side effects and toxicity levels".

Quote:
Extensive European research has shown marijuana use to increase likelyhood of road traffic fatalities and have documented cases of marijuana related deaths of same.

I also agree that high people should not drive, but people still crash cars sober, you see the problem is the car, so ban cars and while we are on the subject I wonder how many studies have been conducted to discover how many accidents are caused by people under the influence of pharmaceutical drugs ?

An analysis of 168,900 autopsies conducted in Florida in 2007 found that three times as many people were killed by legal drugs as by cocaine, heroin and all methamphetamines put together. According to state law enforcement officials, this is a sign of a burgeoning prescription drug abuse problem.
(www.naturalnews.com)


Why should you get to ban something which I freely choose to do under the guise of "public health and safety," why not legislate against monopolies and private enterprise lobbying government in order to create rules which benefit that corporation and the ministers it does deals with.

Legislate, legislate, legislate....you can't legislate life, life is what life does and other people do not get to tell me what I can or what I cannot put into my body or legislate the way I choose to live my life when there is no party injured by my actions.

Carl Jung said of life "Life is a disease with a very poor prognosis. It lingers on for years and invariably ends in death."


Anything can kill you, eating too many burgers, drinking too much water, eating cotton, driving, drowning caused by swimming it's madness and if you want to push the envelope there's no telling how ridiculous it could potentially get and in a so called "free society" accepting the legislation of actions in lieu of an injured party is a threat to and an affront to that so called "free society" and the rule of law itself.

The people smoking weed are too busy living their lives to attempt to control yours and so question becomes why are some people so obsessed by the idea of controlling the actions of others by force whilst proponing the virtues of a "Civil/free society" which is voluntary by definition, how can this irony be lost among such intellectuals ?

Life is a nonlinear event, as Alan Watts said and everything is all going on at once. Our form of logic is a linear one and has had it's uses but modern science is shifting the goal posts and the more we attempt to control this non linear event with regimented linear fictions of the mind the less we'll understand it and you can't successfully legislate against experience, it's ridiculous.

You are not Borg as Darwin taught you, your heart does not operate independently from the rest of you a man with no heart will die, a heart with no man serves no purpose, a heart does not equal a man, a heart, a brain, arms and legs are not separate entities like parts in a car, it is all one.

If you are asking how Darwin is relevant I'll tell you ?!
Darwinian theory (and that is all it is) tries to convince you that you are somehow (again Alan Watts example) separate from the rest of existence almost as if the world or life was something that was happening to you rather than with you and we have built an entire culture with Darwinian theory operating as a fundamental doctrine and it's fractured our species and separated us from our better nature by pitting us against each other as "competitors," this ethos is everyhere.

Can Cannabis kill you ? it's neither here nor there because at some point life will kill you. This age of preoccupation with the victimless actions of others in a supposedly "free society" is coming to an abrupt end and why because much like Man City it's model is "unsustainable," finite planet, consumer culture.

One obsessed with legislating choice, expression and movement and uses internet forums like "thought police" stations.
Where ever there are an informed or controversial debates recurring on particular websites you'll be sure to find a Smith, some agent working for some corporate body or government agency banging out the party line "You are free, to do as we tell you" (Bill Hicks) !


My life, my body, my choice.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Mad Jens (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2012 03:27

Quote:
I can't see how legalisation would improve society but rather create another burden on health services such as that created by alcohol and tobacco.
Isn't the argument always that the amount of revenue generated from taxing something as popular as marijuana would be massive?

I've hardly crunched the numbers but I have to believe any government would be in the black on that one.

Edit: Let's also not forget the cost on the legal system prosecuting pretty stupid marijuana charges costs, too. The only thing I smoke is the occasional cigar, but you could make a better case for banning Tobacco or Alcohol than pot, for my money.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 22/03/2012 03:30 by Mad Jens.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2012 08:11

Jens, oh I don't doubt the taxes on legalising marijuana would bring in a lot of money for a country, you are quite right. It's just such a poorly studied drug and the scanty decent research so far shows it could, although that isn't for sure, place a burden on the health industry at least.
Who knows. If money was the only concern, it would have been legalised long ago.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2012 08:28

Billy, I appreciate your passion for the subject and like I said I don't have a huge problem with drug as I have said mainly because there is so little bonofide research on its long term effects.
But your statement that medication doesn't have health benefits and only relieves symptoms couldn't be wider of the mark. A very simple example (an example of which there literally thousands) is hypertension medication. Most patients are completely a asymptomatic with hypertension and the medication helps control dangerously high blood pressure. If you want more examples I'm more than happy to oblige.
As for legislation, I feel most legislation is in place not for the sensible citizens, but to stop those who aren't from affecting those who are. Not fair maybe, buts that's how it is.
Unfortunately if you choose to belong to a particular society the it's my life and I'll do what I like ideology doesn't hold up. If that were true for everyone, everything would be legal including cocaine.

Smoke if you want, I don't judge. My best friend is a user and he is a doctor. But he will only smoke after 8pm t home because he recognises the precautions needed and the fact that he is far less productive when smoking.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2012 13:10

Quote:
Zainy
Unfortunately if you choose to belong to a particular society the it's my life and I'll do what I like ideology doesn't hold up. If that were true for everyone, everything would be legal including cocaine.

But it does hold up, it's the essence of the rule of law that if there is no injured party that there is no crime and society itself is just an ideology, the principle is intended to be a safeguard against arbitrary governance not to facilitate it.

"[i]t would be a grave lacuna in our system of public law if a pressure group or even a single public spirited taxpayer, were prevented by outdated technical rules of locus standi from bringing the matter to the attention of the court to vindicate the rule of law and get the unlawful conduct stopped." (Lord Diplock)

The Stoics held that no one was a slave by their nature; slavery was an external condition juxtaposed to the internal freedom of the soul (sui juris). Seneca the Younger wrote:
"It is a mistake to imagine that slavery pervades a man's whole being; the better part of him is exempt from it: the body indeed is subjected and in the power of a master, but the mind is independent, and indeed is so free and wild, that it cannot be restrained even by this prison of the body, wherein it is confined".

Martin Luther: "Since, then, belief or unbelief is a matter of every one's conscience, and since this is no lessening of the secular power, the latter should be content and attend to its own affairs and permit men to believe one thing or another, as they are able and willing, and constrain no one by force"


The validity of a statute is measured against the principles of natural law, as John Locke argued such fundamental rights could not be surrendered by people in the social contract, those rights are the rights to life, freedom and property.

I came into being in London, I didn't "choose" a society and it just so happens that this society (idea) espouses governance by "representation" (research the legal definition of this word in statutes, you'll be amazed), freedom of movement, expression and choice but you seem to interpret it as a tyranny ?

Do you know the difference between Fascism and democracy ?

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2012 15:05

No I think its you who is arguing its tyranny not me. You have to abide by the rules, no matter how you interpret the definitions of these constructs. You may have inherited the society in which you live and feel oppressed by its governance but you also benefit from it. You have a choice to leave as well. Committing acts which are against the law is not protected by freedom of choice or free speech. There always limitations. No society in existence is ideal.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: celine dion (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2012 20:27

lets face it kids need protecting from it far more than they do pills cocaine or whatever. So many young kids get into it at about 16 as the most accessible drug, smoke large quantities of very strong hybrid varieties from morning till night, and become complete paranoid anti social zombies. Theres a big difference between an older user who like Zainy says rolls one up after 8pm and laughs at a few films, and these kids you see on my bus every day, reeking of skunk and barely able to string two words together. You want to know why England has about 3 million kids whom employers consider 'unemployable'?. Well I think this stuffs got a lot to do with it, personally.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 23 March, 2012 22:51

Agreed. Stoner children are not a positive reflection on the society they belong to.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Ares (IP Logged)
Date: 26 March, 2012 13:32

Zainy I don't smoke cannabis.

I only ever puffed on a cannabis cigarette once for less than 2 seconds and I didn't like it.

But That said Marjuana is a fantastic plant.

The seed oil from Marjuana is fantastic its legal to buy it and it is officially recognised as the only oil suitable for human consumption with a perfect balance of Omega 6 and Omega 3 oils.

It has zero cholesterol a very high smoke point and a delicious clean and nutty flavor making it excellent for everything from salad dressings to fry ups.

Im not sure but offhand I believe the body can extract more DHA from pressed cannabis/hemp seed oil than from regular fish oil.

There is danger in everything.


Roses are beautiful

But they have thorns, sharp thorns which cut.

I've bought tissue paper made from Marjuana, (from ASDA) and I understand George Bush Snr had his life saved by a parachute woven from marjuana plant fibre.

From what I understand The reason Marjuana was banned in the first place wasn't because it was a helath threat

It was banned because it was perceived as a threat to the timber milling industy in the early 20th Century

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 26 March, 2012 15:57

Of course there are benefits to be had. Hemp is much easier to work with because it's essentially the same plant (cannabis) but with very low thc levels so it's use is not muddied by the recreational drug trade.
Marijuana itself has it's uses as I'd said including select pain patients, certain glaucoma pt's and is great as both an antiemetic and an appetite stimulant for cancer patients.
Yes everything has its dangers but the benefit to risk ratio for the general public has yet to be properly determined an I would certainly not want my own kids on it ( if I had kids)

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Mad Jens (IP Logged)
Date: 26 March, 2012 16:37

The long term affects of half the prescription drugs people pump themselves full of aren't determined either, but we're happy enough to do that.

You can do all the research you want but the only way to truly tell is to see - with so many first generation drugs coming out now who knows what kind of problems the next generation will face down the line. Though I'm sure they'll make a pill for whatever it is.

Love irony.

Anyways, half the draw is the fact that's illegal. Everyone wants what they can't have - make it ordinary and all of a sudden all you're dealing with are the chronic users that would be doing it regardless of legality.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 26 March, 2012 17:24

The big difference Jens is that these prescription drugs are designed to assist and treat health, that is their primary goal. Marijuana is a recreational drug. Big difference.

And all drugs go through pretty strict long testing periods prior to being allowed to come on to the market. The public will moan that drugs are put out too quickly and will also complain when a potential drug isn't allowed to bypass these rules to get onto the market quicker because someone they know may benefit from it.
Drug companies are businesses and dont always act ethically but the drugs they put out have to pass tests that were not designed by them. they also have to be prescribed by doctors like me who don't get a dime for prescribing a single drug, so the money maker racket conspiracy theory doesn't hold much water before anyone goes there.
Medicine is a science, which means its evidence based.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Mad Jens (IP Logged)
Date: 26 March, 2012 17:40

Modern medicine does some fantastic things but not all are "designed to assist and treat health." Vicodin doesn't do anything good for your health. It's just a painkiller and while that's just one there's plenty of others, such as sleeping aids. Many are abused and unlike Marijuana, you can die from certain "cocktails," so to speak.

I was in the hospital a couple months ago and even though I told the Doc I wasn't in pain, he insisted I take a Hydro-codeine and Vicodin prescription. So I took it, why not? But I sure as heck didn't need them. Suffice to say they're all gone now.

Also, medicinal grade marijuana is pretty strictly monitored. Which if legalized is pretty much what you're looking at. If the argument is that Vicodin assists in relieving pain (just carrying through that example for the sake of argument), well isn't that more or less what Marijuana is used for with glaucoma patients etc.?

I think a lot of people get caught up in the packaging. Must be good for you if it comes in a brown bottle, right?

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Mad Jens (IP Logged)
Date: 26 March, 2012 17:42

Re: Research, they're doing that to try to predict results down the line.

People have been smoking marijuana for ages. Maybe not in a lab environment, but I've yet to come across a death-by-pot headline.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: celine dion (IP Logged)
Date: 26 March, 2012 18:48

someone had it right, cant find the post. the reason it was made illegal was primarily because people working in heavy industry, timber yards, munitions etc, were smoking it at breaks and the first time anyone knew about it was when they had chopped one of their arms off. Obviously you can spot someone who has been drinking because you can smell it, but employers complained they couldnt spot people who had been on the pot, so they lobbied governments to get it banned.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Jack_is_the_truth (IP Logged)
Date: 26 March, 2012 22:26

anybody who smokes is a numpty

definately cause mental illness, i have seen it happen



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Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Mad Jens (IP Logged)
Date: 26 March, 2012 22:51

Dr. Jack speaks.

And I don't even smoke the stuff but I think most of the arguments against it are pretty weak when you think about the other things society gets away with. Pretty weak indeed.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 26 March, 2012 23:44

Jens. People have died as a result of smoking marijuana. Make no mistake. Many many cases have been documented and manu suspected deaths, even a recent French study showed that being intoxicated with thc whilst driving may be more lethal than alcohol which is very lethal. Jut because a lethal dose of marijuana is difficult to achieve does not make it harmless. As celine has pointed out there were very valid concerns for making it a controlled substance.

Relieving pain is a benefit to health. No one can deny that. You try cure someone's cancer through surgery without the help of analgesia. Chronic pain as well as acute pain needs to be treated for the benefit of an individual's health. That doesn't mean it has to be treated exclusively by medication but that is what these medications are designed for. Pain can deter healing, worsen conditions and can severe impact on psychological health.

No medicine is good for you unless you need it and incorrect prescriptions are a completely separate subject.
And we are talking about the recreational use of marijuana not the medical uses because recreational use of prescription drugs are just as illegal.
Prescription drugs are not available for recreational use so a comparison is not valid in my opinion.

Longitudinal studies are incredibly difficult and very expensive that is why there is a relative sparsity in medical literature but they are available and are possible.

People think that things that come from nature are better for you which is blatantly not the case. Where did modern medicine come from? All plants and herbs etc that people through trial and error for thousands of years were labelled 'medicine' and a lot of the stuff that simply didn't work wasn't (a lot of the stuff being touted by non scientific minds nowadays)
Most modern medicine today has its derivatives from plants and animals. Yes most plants that have straight medicinal properties also have side effects, some serious. And the deadliest toxins known to man are not synthetic.

Marijuana legalisation needs to stand on its own grounds as comparisons to other medicine etc is not apt.
Maybe effective controls might make it ok, but how do you bring about those controls? Very difficult I think.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Ares (IP Logged)
Date: 27 March, 2012 13:03

Quote:
celine dion
someone had it right, cant find the post. the reason it was made illegal was primarily because people working in heavy industry, timber yards, munitions etc, were smoking it at breaks and the first time anyone knew about it was when they had chopped one of their arms off. Obviously you can spot someone who has been drinking because you can smell it, but employers complained they couldnt spot people who had been on the pot, so they lobbied governments to get it banned.

in the days of Race Discrimination Women being refused the right to vote and Companies bussing in hired thug armies to smash unions

Saying Someone had been drunk or someone had been smoking drugs was a much used dirty tactic to get out of paying compensation for injuries caused by deliberately overworking people and machinery to maximise profits.

Unions smashed and infiltrated, Bad working conditions + Relaxed attitudes to machine overloads in the big industrial sawmills accross north america were the far and away the biggest contributers to death in the workplace and work related chronic illnesses and injury.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Mad Jens (IP Logged)
Date: 27 March, 2012 16:10

Quote:
Jens. People have died as a result of smoking marijuana. Make no mistake.
Never seen anything documented on this, and while I'm sure it is true, think of how many things cause much more lethality. Two wrongs does not make a right and all that, but why the focus on Marijuana?

Quote:
Many many cases have been documented and many suspected deaths, even a recent French study showed that being intoxicated with thc whilst driving may be more lethal than alcohol which is very lethal.
I'm genuinely interested to hear that, I never have. Do you have any links offhand?


Quote:
Jut because a lethal dose of marijuana is difficult to achieve does not make it harmless. As celine has pointed out there were very valid concerns for making it a controlled substance.
I never said it was harmless. Only that the level of fixation on pot is not commensurate with its affects. You can make as solid a case for banning Glue, Spray Paint, or any number of more easily attainable household items.

You can make much better cases for banning things like Alcohol, Cars, and Fast Food.


Quote:
Relieving pain is a benefit to health. No one can deny that.
My point there was, isn't medicinal marijuana used for exactly that? How is using medicinal-grade marijuana to relieve pain any different from popping a pill to do the same?

Quote:
No medicine is good for you unless you need it and incorrect prescriptions are a completely separate subject.
And we are talking about the recreational use of marijuana not the medical uses because recreational use of prescription drugs are just as illegal.
It's all linked, sweeping it aside is foolish. Prescriptions and Marijuana both have medicinal uses, and both have more recreational, "abusive" uses. I really don't see where the huge distinction is, besides one being more stigmatized.

Quote:
Prescription drugs are not available for recreational use so a comparison is not valid in my opinion.
Your a bit out of touch then, I'm afraid. I can find prescriptions as easy or easier.

Quote:
People think that things that come from nature are better for you which is blatantly not the case.
You think so? Maybe its just my group of friends but most seem to think almost the opposite - that if it comes from a doctors office and has a slip of paper that it must be good for you.

Quote:
Marijuana legalisation needs to stand on its own grounds as comparisons to other medicine etc is not apt.
Maybe effective controls might make it ok, but how do you bring about those controls? Very difficult I think.
Well, it makes no difference to me. Make it free or make it a capital crime, life for Ole Jensy goes on as normal. My vice is clear and has "80 proof" written on the label.

That said if the situation were reversed and Marijuana was legal right now in todays society (and with people trying to make the case for it being illegal) I think they'd have a bit of a battle on their hands.

Status quo is easier though.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 27 March, 2012 17:04

Jens, prescription medication being used for recreational use is illegal. Just like marijuana. The fact that you can 'find it easily' is not the point as I said, they are both illegal so if you want to lump them as the same then it's fine because they are treated the same.

I don't think you can make the same argument for cars and fast food, but you're right you could argue the alcohol stance which I would back you on.

As I said, medication is only good for you if you need it. One of my jobs on ward rounds is to go through every one of my patients medication lists and see which medications we can stop. Treating someone with no medication is the ultimate goal but it's sometimes just not possible.
I wasn't referring to people not thinking medication is good for you but rather this perception that is evident in the general population that natural substances have to be good for you. The trend in adverts for various products is to quote some plant or fruit extract used in the product to add to its allure.

[www.bmj.com]
That is the study I mentioned. It must be noted the British medical journal is a very well respected medical journal worldwide and more importantly it is peer reviewed.
So it's not some minor article in an unknown journal.

Yes marijuana has a stigma but it's not for unreasonable reasons. It's not something you would want the general public to be indulging in on a regular basis.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Jack_is_the_truth (IP Logged)
Date: 27 March, 2012 20:52

Quote:
Mad Jens
Dr. Jack speaks.
And I don't even smoke the stuff but I think most of the arguments against it are pretty weak when you think about the other things society gets away with. Pretty weak indeed.

I don't know MJ I think the numpty argument is pretty strong



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Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Mad Jens (IP Logged)
Date: 27 March, 2012 21:49

Try not to dumb down a good conversation, Jack.

I know it's hard.

@Zainy: At work but will check the link out when I get home, thanks.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 28 March, 2012 13:19

More mindless conjecture and again I ask you to show me one recorded case of anyone dying from smoking Cannabis, you can't because there are none.

Quote:
This thread has been nothing but a steady stream of pure conjecture, there is not one recorded case of death from the use of Cannabis and just because someone kills themselves does not mean it has anything to do with the substance and substance abuse is a sign of more deep underlying problem.
Pollution in London alone kills 4000 people every year, so according to most of the above logic, ban cars.

Dogs attack thousands of people every year, so ban dogs.

In the US one of the biggest killers is steak, choking, it's also carcinogenic, ban steak.

Alcohol kills hundreds of thousands every year, ban alcohol.

Prescription Drugs Kill 300 Percent More Americans than Illegal Drugs, a report by the Florida Medical Examiners Commission has concluded that prescription drugs have outstripped illegal drugs as a cause of death, ban them.

Cars kill thousands of people every year across the world, ban cars.

Stress related illness from work kills thousands of people every year, ban working.

Fattening foods kill thousands every year, ban fast food.

AND ON AND ON AND ON.....

After this the thread should have come to an abrupt end because unless you apply the same "reason" to these other substances and dangerous killers of people those of you that agree with Zainy have no argument whatsoever because the argument lacks consistency.

If a statute operates against my natural rights to self preservation or self determination in lieu of any injured party then it does not have the force of law unless i consent for it to do so.

Zainy may have medical knowledge but I have studied natural and positive law for 4 years, the Statutory Instruments Act 1946 itself states: Rules and regulations are subordinate.

Subordinate to what, natural law and natural law states that I have unalienable rights (life, freedom, property, self determination and self preservation) which cannot be surrendered in a social contract and demands that there is a) an injured party and b) evidence to show that those injuries were caused by the defendant.

Society was set up to serve one purpose which was to "protect" people from "violence" or "harm," statutes which do not serve to fulfill this purpose and instead disenfranchise whilst protecting nobody from violence or harm are not laws and as Thomas Aquinas who played a part in codifying the natural law stated "Unjust law is not law, it retains merely the appearance of law insofar as it is duly constituted and enforced in the same way a just law is, but is itself a perversion of law".

He deemed it a "perversion" because society does not have the authority to legislate choices which I freely make in lieu of an injured party, but the apathy and downright ignorance of a dumbed down populous has lost sight of the very principles that their society is espoused to reflect and now you all police yourselves and think that it is your right to police others and I am here to tell you that neither you nor the government have the RIGHT or the AUTHORITY to tell me what I can or cannot do if my actions injure no one AND THAT IS THE LAW.

Legal maxim: A broad statement of principle, the truth and reasonableness of which are self-evident. A rule of Equity, the system of justice that complements the Common Law (below).

"A man can grant no more authority than he himself has to give", I have no right to hold people against their will or sanction them when they are not harming other people and being that "I can grant no more authority than I have to give" I cannot grant the state that authority, nor can you and the government certainly cannot appoint itself as being above the rule of law being that all of it's power is derived from consent of the people and if it does then it's a tyranny by definition.

So many sleepwalkers.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 28 March, 2012 14:49

Billy personally I think your argument is bit too emotive and aggressive. I'm am simply giving my opinion and laying out facts. I don't presume my opinion to be superior than anyone else's including yours.
You have stated the marijuana doesn't kill line of which I agreed on only one point, that the lethal dose of marijuana is difficult to predict but the drug has been implicated in many deaths and injuries and to dodge that fact is to dodge the thrust of the arguement. Not only have these cases been documented but also used in studies- see the above link I provided for Jens.
These other dangers and killers that you've named are simply not comparable.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: celine dion (IP Logged)
Date: 28 March, 2012 18:09

Billy if you walk down the street smoking a joint youll get nicked. You might not agree with the principle, i dont particularly either. I think people should be allowed to inject domestos if they feel like it. But thats the law of the land. It doesnt matter if you agree with it or not. We arent policing ourselves at all, we are policed by the er, police. Its all boll*cks of course, but that doesnt change anything. I dont agree with the tv licence. But if i dont pay it, and continue to watch my tv, ill get fined 10 grand. I dont really see the thrust of your argument.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Gööfle11 (IP Logged)
Date: 28 March, 2012 18:43

I didn't pay my TV license at University, and I smoked in front of authorities. Come at me.



http://i.minus.com/ibh1xvc6mkPzx3.gif

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Mad Jens (IP Logged)
Date: 28 March, 2012 19:44

What a little rebel you are, Goof.

Then you spend a night or two in jail and suddenly taking stupid risks doesn't seem as cool...

Not that I'd know.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Gööfle11 (IP Logged)
Date: 28 March, 2012 23:57

Two years running mate.



http://i.minus.com/ibh1xvc6mkPzx3.gif

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Ares (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 09:58

Potatoes were poisonous once.

Its a good thing our ancestors did not ban them.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 16:19

Quote:
Zainy
These other dangers and killers that you've named are simply not comparable.

The test of comparability is in the word "death," so you are right as Cannabis has killed no one and pharmaceutical drugs kill 3 times more people than all of the illegal drugs combined.

Quote:
Celine
Billy if you walk down the street smoking a joint youll get nicked. You might not agree with the principle, i dont particularly either. I think people should be allowed to inject domestos if they feel like it. But thats the law of the land.

Celine I have invited you to visit my site before in a PM but I don't think you have paid me a visit yet so I see why you might think that commercial law is the "law of the land," I'm here to tell you that it is not, it is the law of Admiralty, Maritime law which applies only to vessels operating in commerce emanating from a port/municipal corporation.

If you agree that the municipal corporation holds legal title over you then you have consented that it's system of commercial law applies to you.
If there is no injured party there is no crime and that is the "law of the land," the law of the high sea's does not require an injured party, you are summarily judged as guilty merely because an officer of the court makes a claim that you are.

Visit the site Celine and see why I am right.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: weedz (IP Logged)
Date: 10 April, 2012 11:17

Can marijuana kill you? On it`s own, no.

If you`re talking about experimenting a little, weed is seriously the safest drug to try.

There has never been a single case of someone dying from overdosing, smoking cannabis. The amount of THC required to O/D, is more than someone can smoke. And you can ingest weed, hash cookies, etc, for a stronger and longer effect than smoking. Still no recorded deaths. Alcohol poisoning kills 100s of people (many young) annually. Tobacco directly kills tens of 1000s annually.
If the first one don`t get ya, the last one will.

As Zainy pointed out, this statement doesn`t take into account accidents that happen whist under the influence of weed. Or indeed the side effect such as mental illness and the physical damage that smoking brings.

Ingesting and/or vaporisers negates most of the physical problems. And like all drugs, including alcohol, control your intake.

On the subject of how come pot is illegal, the petroleum industry had a major effect in how hemp was made to look unsocial and eventually criminal. They discovered that a bye-product of the oil to petrol process was nylon and the synthetic rope industry was born.

Hemp is one of the longest natural fibres known to man and the nylon rope industry had no chance of bettering on the strength and life of hemp rope. So they challenged hemp in the courts of the USA, on the grounds that it`s anti-social and health harming. And they won.

Up until about 130 years ago weed was completely legal everywhere.



Mertz for Club Captain

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Philly the kid (IP Logged)
Date: 12 April, 2012 18:48

3 points.

1; My best mates little brother killed himself having weed psychosis. The weed didn't cause his death. He was always a head case, and he was always going to go off the rails, be it weed or legal alcohol.

2; If weed were legal that would take away a MASSIVE amount of money from the drug trafficking gangs. Police would not have to spend so much money pretending to bring them down. Border agencies could focus more on security, etc, etc.
Think what the prohibition of alcohol did to america. It spawned the gangster era.
IMHO the govt should be legalising weed. They obviously can't stop anyone smoking it, may as well profit from it. Besides, if it's legal they can control the the levels and stop all this hybrid craziness that appears to be the fashion.
The govt need all the money they can get right now. Drastic change is needed. They ain't got the balls to try a new angle though.

3; Anyone remember the european champs in holland/belgium?
Crowd control was only a problem in Belgium. Funny that.(Sm161)
Where's a slap your forehead smiley when you need one?!

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 12 April, 2012 19:37

Marijuana has been proven to increase psychotic episodes and development of psychotic disorder in people predisposed to them. But it also can cause acute psychotic episodes in non predisposed individuals.

The prohibition argument has been used before but it's not really the same. Cocaine, heroine etc has spawned underground criminal activity like the world has never seen - why don't we legalise those drugs as well?
You're right it might make it easier to manage if it was legalised. Why though are governments so against legalising it when it seems so obvious to some that the only effect it will have is bringing in masses of cash for the said governments. It must be the fact that most capitalist governments hate money.

Are you insinuating that their was crowd control problems because fans in belgium were not smoking weed? Or that everyone in holland was smoking weed so they didn't cause a problem?

If we could swap legalising marijuana for outlawing alcohol I'd take it. But I can just imagine the combination of smokin weed and drinking making health expenditure go through the roof.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: weedz (IP Logged)
Date: 13 April, 2012 21:35

I agree with your sentiments Zainy, but to my way of thinking, the horse has already bolted, as far as the weed debate is concerned.

Like it or not, prohibition is/has enabled/ facilitated the monster that is the illegal drug trade. At present it is far,far worse that the gangster era of 1920s, USA
The population demands choice. A large % of the population wants to use this drug. In my country it`s as `high` as 25% to 30%. In time, I believe, more people will smoke pot than will smoke tobacco. Which is far more sensible.

The answer to this and the the whole drug problem is to do something about the total lack of education from a very young age as to the problems that drug abuse brings.

Tobacco use is being `EDUCATED` out of society at present. The same process should taken with other drug abuse.

Education is the answer, not prohibition.



Mertz for Club Captain

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 14 April, 2012 11:26

Agreed 100% Weedz. Education is definitely the best solution. Unfortunately it's also the most difficult to achieve. Add to that the fact that an educated population is the most dangerous opposition to a controlling power...

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Gooner_Mike (IP Logged)
Date: 14 April, 2012 17:56

Interesting debate.

I used to smoke on a regular basis, and the amount of misinformed opinions you hear about it is ridiculous.

Tobacco is far far worse on your your overall health, as is alcohol over long term use.

Firstly, driving "high" can actually safer if you are a regular user. Watch this:





Im not saying that if you had never smoked before, lit up a fat one, and took to the M4 you would be an exemplary driver, im saying if you are a regular user and shared a spliff half an hour before driving you actually concentrate more whilst driving.

I would also be extremely interested to see whether the road deaths linked with its use were also those who drank or did other hard drugs as well, mix both and driving will be erratic and dangerous.

Secondly, it is impossible to overdose on weed. You would have to smoke your own body weight in it to even get near that level.

Regarding the level of carcinogens, it is far safer smoked through a bong, or finally there is a ZERO carcinogen level method of smoking, which produces no second hand smoke, which is through a piece of equipment called a vaporizer.

You can read about it here and its widely used across america:

Vaporizer

The weed is burnt to a temperature (~180*c) that doesnt activate the canaboids that makes you sleepy/psychotic, it just gives you a nice uplifting feeling without any side effects, pure THC.

It has been known to cure cancer (obviously not in the smoking form), help those with sever pain and disabilities, the plants also help reduce the levels of C02 in the atmosphere, amongst many other things, you just need to do a little research.

Thats just my 2 pence anyway. If used in moderation, via the correct method, it will have virtually no negative effects on the human body. I think you have to try it a few times to understand.

If I had never had a redbull before, then proceeded to drink 10, just before getting in the car, then yes I would be f*cked up, its the same principal with weed. But if I shared a spliff or two at night for a couple of months straight, the only effect I would have is slightly hungry, happy, and sleepy. Is that so bad?

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 15 April, 2012 10:34

I'd take that information with a pinch of salt GM. Marijuana has never been used to or has never been shown to cure cancer. All plants reduce co2. That's a natural process where they convert cintend sunlight into energy and give off oxygen as a byproduct. It's not specific to marijuana plants. It certainly does have its benefits to man kind but they are very specific and no wide ranging as many proponents will try make you believe.

The reason why people are reluctant to buy into the lectures by marijuana users on its benefits is because zero percent of recreational marijuana users do so because of these real and apparent benefits. They do so because of its recreational mind altering effects. So the argument for bias is quite compelling.

The journal article showing marijuana use to cause a significant amount of road deaths takes into accoun those who drink as well and also compares against those who drink without marijuana use.
Bottom line is all legitimate research shows it is NOT safe to use thc and drive.
My best friend uses a vaporiser and is a man of science and he would never dream of partaking and driving.
But you're right, if anyone was to use marijuana I would certainly advocate using a vaporiser.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Billythekid (IP Logged)
Date: 15 April, 2012 15:46

Quote:
Zainy
I'd take that information with a pinch of salt GM.

Pinch of salt, why should he take a practical experiment with a pinch of salt which showed the fact? Is it because that experiment destroys your argument or does being a doctor make your opinion more pertinent then the facts ?!

(Sm126)

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 15 April, 2012 17:21

If you understand anything about science you would know the answer billy. You clearly aren't a man of science or you would see the problem with a 'practical example' being used as a basis to derive wide sweeping facts.
It's actually quite amusing that you think a non controlled single man 'study' can be used as evidence to prove any point. I think I'll take my findings from a peer reviewed journal that actually follows the rules of scientific evidence based research over that video. And as much as it might frustrate you this is going to be the way scientific minds will view it until legitimate research proves otherwise. Sorry.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Padre Pio (IP Logged)
Date: 16 April, 2012 17:22

If someone dropped a one ton bale of it on your head it would certainly kill you.



Arsenal is a top 16 European club that will remain a top 16 European club and the Emirates is tape-loop that will show the same drab movie for a decade.

Nothing will change except the ticket prices

Kroenke & Wenger are made for each other.

Arsenal’s not a football club. It’s just a business. Myles Palmer

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: Zainy (IP Logged)
Date: 16 April, 2012 19:53

A very sobering point Padre. I think that should be the end of it so.

 
Re: TYT: Can marijuana kill you?
Posted by: weedz (IP Logged)
Date: 18 April, 2012 23:24

Quote:
Padre Pio
If someone dropped a one ton bale of it on your head it would certainly kill you.

Agreed Padre, but think of the fun, cleaning up the mess.



Mertz for Club Captain

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