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O/T EU Referendum
Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 10:52
Seems unlikely this won't be discussed one here - me and BC will no doubt trade blows over the coming weeks and months - so I figured having a single place to put them would enable those who don't want to read or take part to easily avoid it.

With that in mind please don't come on this thread and moan that me and/or others are moaning about politics. It's almost certainly going to get fractious at times.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Alfie (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 10:59
IMO Only Brits living in Britain should be allowed to vote not people from the commonwealth and Southern Ireland .. Bloody ridiculous

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
BC2 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 11:02
Sorry LS, I've just kicked off on the Jungle Drums thread before seeing this, maybe the mods could transfer it ?

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 11:10
It seems very simple to me.Democracy....quite simply as part of the EU there is none and even the pretense is being eroded before our very eyes.It seems to me that very many people have been bought off by economic fear which if you look at the facts are entirely irrational and false.Each week we donate £385m to a group of countries in Europe and one of those recipients is France and surprisingly Holland is also one of them.Vote Leave but more importantly up to 23rd June reclaim our democracy and get involved.

 
Re: Jungle Drums in the GB Lunatic Asylum
BC2 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 11:00
I don't trust the majority of our politicians Alfie, but at least I get the opportunity to have my say, to appoint them or remove them from office every five years.

Not so with the EU, their law-making body the EU Commission is not elected, they're appointed. I have no say in who these people are, nor how they are appointed, nor any way to remove them from office, yet they formulate the laws which we are all obliged to obey. And incidentally, these Commissioners, not content with their executive power, huge salaries and ridiculously generous pension rights, also are exempt from paying tax. So we can't hold them to account while they live tax free at our expense, very nice. Is it any wonder that the elite, the establishment, the Cameron's, Osbornes, Cleggs, Blairs and Browns of this world are desperate for us to remain on the gravy train, why on earth would they not be ?

But why on earth any ordinary person would want to continue contributing £55 million a day to this undemocratic, bloated, corrupt bureaucracy is way beyond my comprehension.

 
Re: Jungle Drums in the GB Lunatic Asylum
Dave Thomas (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 11:05
There arr arguements for and against

But mine are for leaving

£55million a day is what it costs us.
EU now is too big, too complex, too unwieldy,
At the end of the day the EU fanatics want just one single country.

plus the refugee/migrant crisis has shown it up to be the shambles that it is when the big problems arrive and real decisions.
it has shown that individual countries will always put their own interests first.

Safer in the EU... no thats NATO that keeps us safe.
Trade will continue quite happily. It's fearmongering that says it won't.
It will be like having a pair of handcuffs removed

And what other organisation has auditors that for something like 20 years has refused to sign off the accounts. We can only assume thats because they don't know where all the money goes.

And the directive that wants to standardise bloody oven gloves was the last straw in pointless meddling. We use tea towels in our house.

Had to buy a new riding hat for our daughter. She goes to riding for the disabled once a fortnight with a perfectly good hat that an elephant could stand on. But oh no the EU meddlers had to standardise riding hats. That cost us £85.

But at the end of the day its the £350million a week that we send to Brussels that gets my goat.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/02/2016 12:39 by Dave Thomas.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 11:43
Democracy BON - do you believe we have one, regardless of the EU? It's an illusion of choice regardless of the EU mate. But also the money (which seems a common theme)? Have to query your idea that France and Holland are on the take. Most recent figures I could find (2012) show they both are net contributors - France more so than us?

So DT, it's about the money we send for you?

And for you BC it's the laws, like greater rights for workers, you object to? Or is it mainly the cash?

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 11:52
This link MAY be useful for comparing figures. I'm assuming it is accurate to be fair but it does allow to select any country and view their net contribution to the EU for a year:

http://www.money-go-round.eu/Country.aspx?id=UK

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
kaiapoi claret (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 11:53
Quote:
Alfie
IMO Only Brits living in Britain should be allowed to vote not people from the commonwealth and Southern Ireland .. Bloody ridiculous
I agree I read somewhere you can vote if you have lived in another country for under 15 years We have the same here in NZ Kiwis living in uk can vote in elections every 3 years sometimes they overturn the vote on election night in some electorates Ive lived in NZ for 2 thirds of my life im retired i collect the NZ pension If id only just come to live in NZ then i think i should have the right to vote just incase i didnt like NZ and go back to UK to live

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 12:03
Quote:
kaiapoi claret
Quote:
Alfie
IMO Only Brits living in Britain should be allowed to vote not people from the commonwealth and Southern Ireland .. Bloody ridiculous
I agree I read somewhere you can vote if you have lived in another country for under 15 years We have the same here in NZ Kiwis living in uk can vote in elections every 3 years sometimes they overturn the vote on election night in some electorates Ive lived in NZ for 2 thirds of my life im retired i collect the NZ pension If id only just come to live in NZ then i think i should have the right to vote just incase i didnt like NZ and go back to UK to live

No way should anyone who has chosen to live in another country get a vote - mind you as far as I'm concerned if you chose to live in another country you should lose your citizenship so I guess I'm way out of step with mainstream. It only impacts on people who live here and it should be those people who vote.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
soapylily (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 12:29
This is going to be an interesting thread and I think there should be a Longside in/out poll running alongside it. Alfie ^%$%$# off! There, that should provide a high falutin' level of debate!

I spent 28 years ready to defend yours and Longsiders 1882s' rights to voice opinions with which I might disagree but (as in the Scottish referendum) why should British citizens born in Britain be denied the right to vote no matter where they reside on the planet, whilst naturalised citizens will have the right to vote? It does not only impact on those in the UK but the potentially hundreds of thousands who will return if Great Britain becomes an independent sovereign nation once again.

I became a political refugee from the EU under Bliar's leadership. As a British Sea Fisheries officer I saw at first hand the damage, environmental, humanitarian and economic which the EU (unelected, unaudited and a corrupt organisation from top to bottom full of vested nationalistic interests) wrought on just one area of UK policy.

Does anyone really think the UK Armed Forces would be so toothless today were it not for the European Security and Defense Initiative? Anyone who voted yes in 1975 should hang their heads in shame - the writing was already on the wall for those of us prepared to take the time to read it. If the EU final financial collapse occurs before the referendum, and it may well do so, there will be only one outcome.

Following the paper written by Mrs Boris on the hegemony of the EU Judiciary I would be keen to read Cheshire's thoughts on this thread.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
BC2 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 13:39
Quote:
Longsiders1882

And for you BC it's the laws, like greater rights for workers, you object to? Or is it mainly the cash?

The laws are just one aspect of it LS, there are so many more. But it's not the laws in themselves, it's the fact that the lawmakers are unaccountable, I want the people of this country to have the right to elect the lawmakers, not have them foisted upon us by some faceless, unaccountable bureaucracy. If you had suggested this situation to people in this country 50 years ago, they'd have laughed in your face at the mere idea of it. But it's happened, it's crept up on us, almost un-noticed, by lies, deceit and subterfuge.

We've become dis-enfranched by stealth, with the connivance of our own governments and politicians we've lost the ability to govern ourselves, something millons of citizens of this country have given their lives for over the years. The only way to get back the right to self-governance is to leave, the EU will never give that power up.

As for laws governing worker's rights, if you want greater rights for workers then vote for a Labour government, it's called democracy, what's wrong with that ?

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
BC2 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 14:02
Quote:
Longsiders1882

No way should anyone who has chosen to live in another country get a vote - mind you as far as I'm concerned if you chose to live in another country you should lose your citizenship so I guess I'm way out of step with mainstream. It only impacts on people who live here and it should be those people who vote.

So LS, you think any Brit who to chooses lives in France, Belgium, Holland etc should be stripped of British citizenship, and should keep their nose out of any political debate/discussion/election/referendum impacting on the lives of those remaining in the UK. Well I don't agree with you but fair enough.

But then it seems you're happy to accept that any faceless, unaccountable, unelected French, Belgian or Dutch bureaucrat in Brussels can tell you what to do while you're living in England, can tell you how you will live your life in England, and you'll happily doff your cap, wag your tail, and say "Oui monsieur, je vais le faire".

Wow !!!

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Foreverclaret (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 14:06
As Soapy has suggested The Longside EU Referendum is now up as a sticky vote away.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 14:35
Ah BC you raise a different question because we have a deal with other EU nations so it complicates things. Unfortunately whilst we remain in the EU I have to accept those people remain citizens - it doesn't mean I am happy about it.

Soap I never asked you to be 'prepared' to protect my rights and I suspect if you are honest you primarily did it for the money not the principle - maybe I'm wrong, just basing it on those I know who are in the forces.

Here's a proverbial cat to throw amongst the pigeons - which EU country do you think has the most people living and working outside its own borders?

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 15:12
It is obviously the UK and bringing that fact up opens a subject that should alarm us all.Wrong subject to make your case LS.I will state right now that even if it costs me financially, which I very much doubt it will, I will still vote to leave this failed, uncompetitive,corrosive and corrupt re-enactement of the soviet union named the EU.You are right about France but their contribution is declining.....Surprisingly even though rich Holland in 2013 took out roughly 2Billion more than it put in Bulgaria at the same time was a net contributor.Figures for the last couple of years during which UKIP had a landslide of MEP's, 4m votes at a general election, a Conservative Gov committed to a referendum and declines in the majority of EU economies it is unsurprising that facts and figures for the last couple of years are, putting it politely, difficult to come by. whilst the majority of the EU shrinks we in the have expanded.The consequence of which our net contributions have increased and will continue to do so.As most countries in the EU are financially dependant it would be no surprise for the gang in Brussels to come up with ever more imaginative schemes to steal our money.Labour and the socialists loves EU, after all it is financially Blair Brown on speed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/02/2016 15:43 by Brian O'Neil.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
BC2 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 15:47
It is complicated LS, I'm just trying and failing to understand where you're coming from.

It does seem that you would like to deny the right of British citizenship to anyone who moves abroad, yet are happy to defend the right of an unelected foreigner, who might well have never even set foot in this country, to tell British citizens what they must do in their own country. However much I try I can't even come close to reconciling those two contradictory views.

While it's not really relevant to the discussion, but since you brought the topic up, are you aware that many/most of the Brits living in Europe will still be paying income tax in this country, as I was when I lived in France. How do you propose to replace the tax revenue lost, as presumably you will also make these people tax exiles. Are you sure you've thought this through, or is it just a gut reaction, not a serious proposition ?

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 15:48
BON you have made it clear that 'democracy' is your thing. Right now I am not attempting to make a case for in or out - I've been clear I'm voting in and I've been honest about why. The arguments as such are wasted on me. I would though point out my view that in or out of the EU we have only the illusion of democracy

That doesn't mean I'm not interested in hearing them, for and against. My fear is so much of the against is inspired by sabre rattling, fuelled by massive dollops of misinformation.

Ultimately the money argument is just a shield for peoples real reasons for wanting out - if it wasn't we'd stop quoting that disingenuous 55 million a day figure (don't get me wrong it is still around 21 million a day but even this in perspective to say circa 400 million per day on the NHS - or 153 million a day paying people rent and giving them tax credits (i.e. subsidising wages!!!!) isn't as dreadful as painted).

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 15:59
Its a general comment BC, not even specific to this debate. However your statement is only true if those exiles are declaring earnings in the UK or in receipt of benefits I would imagine.

However I am intrigued for you to show me where I defended 'the right of an unelected foreigner, who might well have never set foot in this country, to tell British citizens what they must do ...'

I've been clear on my reasons for voting remain, I think I've been clear enough at least. I don't recall defending the rights of unelected foreigners to do anything but I do accept I said I feel foreigners who once happened to live here should not be entitled to decide whether we do or do not remain part of the EU. They are voting on something that doesn't impact on them. To me those of us impacted by this should be allowed to vote and decide our future.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
soapylily (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 18:43
Quote:
Longsiders1882

Soap I never asked you to be 'prepared' to protect my rights and I suspect if you are honest you primarily did it for the money not the principle
(Sm22) Oh yes we were rolling in it. Thats why Maggie eventually had to give HM Armed Forces a 30% plus pay rise. No one asks the forces to protect them but having lived in the former USSR and occasionally served in South Korea I have seen what the world may have looked like for the UK had not some of us been prepared to do so.
Quote:
Longsiders1882
Here's a proverbial cat to throw amongst the pigeons - which EU country do you think has the most people living and working outside its own borders?
A result of having quite recently the largest empire the world has ever seen, all before the EU was even dreamt of - difficult to imagine little ol' Britain being outside the EU, eh?

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
fulledgelad (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 19:35
Quote:
Soap I never asked you to be 'prepared' to protect my rights and I suspect if you are honest you primarily did it for the money

Lol,,what an absolutely ridiculous comment.



Lest We Forget:
http://i25.tinypic.com/6rkd5g.jpg

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
LightcliffeClaret (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 20:03
Heart says out, head says in.

I need to hear more from both camps before I make a decision either way.

Probably go out though.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
BC2 (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 21:02
"However I am intrigued for you to show me where I defended 'the right of an unelected foreigner, who might well have never set foot in this country, to tell British citizens what they must do ..."

LS, refer back to the only reason I've given yet for wanting to leave the EU. The fact that EU law, which we must obey in this country, can ONLY be proposed by the EU Commission. The Commissioners are not elected, they're appointed, they are thus unelected foreigners who tell UK citizens what they can and cannot do in their own country. So if you support our continuing membership then you are defending the right of said foreigners to tell us what to do. Whether you realise it or not, that's what you're doing.

" I would though point out my view that in or out of the EU we have only the illusion of democracy "

To a point I would agree with you LS. In the UK we have a so-called democracy which gives the SNP 56 MPs at Westminster to represent the views of the 1.4 million people who voted for them. The 7.4 million who voted for UKIP, the Lib Dems and the Greens have just 8 MPs between them to represent their interests. (The SNP however appear to do nothing but bemoan their lot, sulk, whinge and threaten, but that's another story.) If that's a true and fair democracy then I'm an effing Dutchman, but it is at least a form of democracy, flawed as it may be, and any form of democracy, however flawed, is to be preferred to the EU, which is NOT democratic at all.

Again, why any normal/ordinary citizen of the UK prefers NO democracy to our flawed democracy is way beyond my comprehension. Perhaps you could explain ?

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
soapylily (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 22:08
I'm with Mussolini here folks: "democracy is beautiful in theory, in practice it is a fallacy". Just like communism and socialism then. Give me a benevolent despot (with the emphasis on benevolent) any day.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Alfie (IP Logged)
22 February, 2016 23:14
If we do leave Europe..I hope we go somewhere warm...like Florida.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 02:29
If we do Alfie the inners will probably hope we go to somewhere extremely hot.....Hell.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
colinwaldron (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 07:57
Already the politicians (the Tory ones anyway) have hijacked this vote for their own political means and to re compass their party as a party of the right; it is being used as a platform to establish; elect and succeed Cameron as leader of the Tory party and to do that the potential leaders are siding up with the out vote to present "something" as an alternative to oppose Cameron. I wonder how many (Borris The Bonkers and others) really think is best, as opposed to seeing it as a convienient ticket to stand on as potentially the new Tory Leader? Given that Corbyn stands about as much chance of becoming the Next PM, as The Wrecking Rockers have of winning The Eurovision Song Contest; then the longevity of the politican's aims come to the fore.

I would agree that there are cases to be made for and against and they need to be considered against the sureity of what we have now and what might be.

I think as a people we have started to take for granted what we have for some years now, health, wealth and security and if we look back at our society over the last 70 years you can see that we are wealthier, have a health system but are we more secure?

It is prioritising (and second guessing?) about what we (as individuals see) as needing to change/improve that underpins how we decide In or Out?

For me the greatest challenge is not about wealth, health or social justice, but about security and it is such an important issue that I am going to harp back to 1939-45 when we faced being enslaved by the @#$%& regime'; home security, freedom and staying a sovereign country was the top of everyones tick list and boiling it down to the fundementals is the top of mine.

So how can we be more secure by being out of Europe? Yes we are part of NATO, but it is that collectiveness that has given us "relative peace" since 1945 and in my opinion we can strive and achieve that best security by being "more" not "less"

So I vote we stay in and each of us consider the journey we have made over the last 70 years and how society has improved overall for the better in that time. To gamble that now on an unclear future pathway seems frankly "silly to me". I am no Tory, I am no supporter of Cameron, but as he has said our Sovereignty is better protected by us being in at the table discussing those issues rather than on the outside having them, nevertheless still handed down to us. So my vote is to stay in Europe.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Turfite/colsig.jpg


.............
"Say no to the car scrappage scheme"
Ex Aintree Naps Champion
Ex Naps Champion
Ex Cheltenham Naps Champion



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 23/02/2016 08:02 by colinwaldron.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 08:37
BC I said I was voting remain because it was personally financially better - I did not defend anyones right, elected or otherwise. What I said was I don't care about all that stuff, just what I perceive as being financially best for me.

Read this thread. I've asked people what heir reasons are, I haven't said anyone is right or wrong.

I'm voting remain simply because I believe it is in my own personal interests to do so.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
soapylily (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 10:26
Quote:
colinwaldron
Already are we more secure?....So how can we be more secure by being out of Europe? Yes we are part of NATO, but it is that collectiveness that has given us "relative peace" since 1945 and in my opinion we can strive and achieve that best security by being "more" not "less"
CW I could spend a lot of time and energy explaining why the EU policies and military actions over the last decade and a half have actually weakened Britain's security but at the moment I haven't the inclination. There is some good background reading on Wiki: [en.wikipedia.org]
but like the Euro, EU defence structures are all built on sand and they will not withstand a decent high tide.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
colinwaldron (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 10:38
Quote:
soapy
CW I could spend a lot of time and energy explaining why the EU policies and military actions over the last decade and a half have actually weakened Britain's security but at the moment I haven't the inclination.

Well if your not going to then I can't argue with that! (Sm14)

Boiled down it comes to this has Europe been at War with itself over the last 70 years; "No" I will take that as meaning we should stick with the staus quo.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Turfite/colsig.jpg


.............
"Say no to the car scrappage scheme"
Ex Aintree Naps Champion
Ex Naps Champion
Ex Cheltenham Naps Champion

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 11:01
I think CW has presented the most balanced appraisal, in that he accepts both positions have positives and negatives.

I do worry that the leave campaign will not recognise this. It's OK to vote leave but you must do so accepting the things you will lose to one extent or another. Similarly the remain camp need to recognise the up side to leaving. Of course that isn't going to happen but it would be nice to be presented with an honest, balanced assessment of what we lose and gain with each path.

It's one of those things where there isn't a right or wrong answer. Even for me, coming out presents a challenge but also an opportunity.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
soapylily (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 11:17
Quote:
colinwaldron
Quote:
soapy
CW I could spend a lot of time and energy explaining why the EU policies and military actions over the last decade and a half have actually weakened Britain's security but at the moment I haven't the inclination.

Well if your not going to then I can't argue with that! (Sm14)

Boiled down it comes to this has Europe been at War with itself over the last 70 years; "No" I will take that as meaning we should stick with the staus quo.

I will try to before June for you CW. It is NATO that has been responsible for 70 years of peace not the EU. When JC (whom I actually admire as leader)starts suggesting we should leave NATO it makes me shudder from a security perspective, not so the EU.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
soapylily (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 11:19
Quote:
Longsiders1882
Even for me, coming out presents a challenge....
Just push on the cupboard door matey. (Sm23)

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
CheshireExile (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 13:08
I cannot believe that anyone who embraces a Left-leaning view of politics would wish to remain part of the EU. A couple of points:

-The TTIP, which will be implemented by the EU members under qualified majority voting whether or not Britain is for or against, will lead to a massive increase in privatisation of public services. I thought the Left were dead against that?

-Furthermore; austerity. Have you seen what they've done to Spain, Portugal and Greece in the name of "internal wage deflation" to keep the Euro afloat? Massive unemployment has been the result, with nearly 50% of school and college leavers having no prospect of finding paid employment for years to come. I thought the Left detested "austerity"?

The EU is a bloated, corrupt Fascistic* system, and I'm voting "out".

*As in the Mussolini kind of Fascism whereby government engages with banks and large corporations in a stitch-up to the detriment of individual citizens and small business.



http://i53.tinypic.com/2h5m9fa.jpg

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 13:13
I will ask you this CW who would you bet you and your families life on NATO or EU forces ?You are presuming in your considerations that the status quo of the last 70 years is a constant or prediction of the future, quite clearly it isn't.Mainland Europe is in a state of unpredictable dangerous flux excacerbated by Merkel inviting what will be 2m plus muslims into the continent. Amongst those arriving there are unknown numbers of extremists.If you add into that mixture uncontrolled amounts of arms and munitions of all kinds from the eastern block and the former Yugolslavia we are in for a very dangerous period ahead.It would be very foolish to think that you could rely on our counterparts in europe to ptotect us,indeed they have already expressed their desire to disperse their self inflicted "problem"to our shores. They have demonstrated that their european arrest warrants and co-operation have had absoluteley no effect whatsoever on reducing crime or terrorism.We will without doubt continue to co-operate as much if not more in the future as a matter of self preservation and it is in the interests of all or most countries in europe to do so whether we are in or out.Anyone who says otherwise is quite simply foolish or lying.Our security as it has always been lies in us being as separate as we determine.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
colinwaldron (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 13:41
You "out" guys are entitled to your views and I won't set about trying to dismantle your arguments and it's not about political alienment as I have mentioned earlier (although your question Chesh of "I cannot believe that anyone who embraces a Left-leaning view of politics would wish to remain part of the EU." well I think you will find that the majority of the Labour party will be behind the Remain vote; indeed the party tearing themselves apart over this is in fact the Tories and one wonders just what kind of "set up" we would up in if we voted to come out and that (not any political bias or view) is what worries me.

Brian the point is and I have already made it, is that we are not soley relying on Europe are we? we are not out of NATO because we are in Europe and "greater" means "stronger" in my view. To suggest that our security is "as it has always been lies in us being as separate as we determine" is in my view a highly dangerous route to go down; in World war Two, by ourselves we probably would have lost and we are nowhere near the military power that we were then.



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.............
"Say no to the car scrappage scheme"
Ex Aintree Naps Champion
Ex Naps Champion
Ex Cheltenham Naps Champion

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 13:54
And it wasn't Europe that saved itself then was it not CW.Had we not stood our ground and defended our island status there would have been no springboard from which to liberate Europe from it's self inflicted destruction. As I have said elsewhere, Germany and co are feckups and they are at it again now EU or no EU.Nothing changes only circumstances and those worryingly are going in the wrong direction again.None so blind as them who will not see.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
colinwaldron (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 14:13
or don't hold the same opinion as you Brian.



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.............
"Say no to the car scrappage scheme"
Ex Aintree Naps Champion
Ex Naps Champion
Ex Cheltenham Naps Champion

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
So_Cal_Claret (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 14:47
Fascinating thread! Let me start by saying that I no longer have skin in this game - I am now a US citizen and will therefore not be voting in June (November is a different story - maybe we can start a thread about THAT vote sometime soon!).

Anyway, I voted Yes in '75 for fundamentally the reasons CW stated so eloquently above. Whether the situation has changed regarding that security need in Europe is open for question, as are many other things. Europe is not, and cannot be a United States of Europe - too many different customs and cultures. If that is what Brussels is trying to create, then get out. Hell, the United States of the United States is barely holding together these days - and we know what happened last time it fell apart.

Not sure what I would vote now. I do get asked a lot about it and I have to say, this is one of the most considered discussions about the decision and helps me talk about the issues with interested parties.

Credit to The Longside Lounge and its members. Well done - keep it up.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 15:07
Quote:
colinwaldron
You "out" guys are entitled to your views and I won't set about trying to dismantle your arguments and it's not about political alienment as I have mentioned earlier.

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still CW.

To be honest if I put self interest aside I'd vote leave and consequences be damned - we've survived worse.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
CheshireExile (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 16:40
If the Labour Party is united behind staying in Europe then it is contradicting itself for the reasons I mentioned above. Corbyn and Donnell were anti-EU until recently and I suspect that they were told to change their views by McCluskey.

Dennis Skinner, Frank Field and Kate Hoey are all "outdoors", by the way, so Labour are not totally united on the issue.



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Re: O/T EU Referendum
colinwaldron (IP Logged)
23 February, 2016 17:01
3 or 4 Labour MPs against half the Tory MPs is not a comparison Chesh.



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Re: O/T EU Referendum
CheshireExile (IP Logged)
24 February, 2016 15:58
Left-wing reasons for leaving the EU.

One excellent read.

The EU will influence the future of the NHS just as it helped smooth Tory privatisation of the Post Office and the organisational break-up of the railways; it is in tune with austerity and drives a larger and more deadly version in the eurozone; it escalates problems linked to housing, work, wages and education; creates worry and stirs up anger and threatens people’s sense of self. A lazy acceptance of establishment propaganda and a fear of being branded “xenophobic” have silenced many liberals and left-wingers. And yet the EU is driven by big business. This is a very corporate coup.

A single European nation suits the US government, its multinationals and its military. One leader is a lot easier to deal with than many. The same goes for a single currency. This is clear in moves by the EU and the US to impose the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), which will allow the corporations of both blocs the chance to exploit each other’s markets, smoothing out “obstacles” in the process. The NHS would be targeted by US health-care companies and trade union rights threatened. Negotiations to bring in TTIP have been taking place in secret. There is no voting involved, no pretence at democracy, little proper coverage by the media. The main parties are broadly supportive. With TTIP comes the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) system, whereby business can take governments to court if its profits are infringed upon. This is mind-blowing stuff, but our politicians say nothing.

The New Statesman can hardly be described as a hot-bed of Right-wing thinking.

If the Labour Party had any sense they'd follow this line of thinking, make it policy and make themselves electable in the process. I'd vote for them if they did.



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Re: O/T EU Referendum
BC2 (IP Logged)
24 February, 2016 22:06
Ah yes, Security, another reason I'll be voting to get out.

I read a quote from Cameron in the DT this morning on the dangers of leaving the EU.

"Brexit would weaken the west at a time of great concern and conflict. We've got Putin to the east, we've got Daesh in Syria and Iraq, and problems with terrorism"

Well he's not wrong about the serious security problems, but if he thinks the EU is the solution to these problems he's in la-la land, the opposite is the case, it is to a great extent the cause of them.

It was the EU's encroachment ever further eastwards onto Russia's doorstep in the Ukraine which is the root cause of Putin's current belligerence. There was to be an EU/Ukraine Association Agreement , which more or less co-opted Ukraine into the EU, including into the European Defence Agency. How on earth antagonising Europe's greatest military power on it's own border is supposed to contribute to our security I've no idea, and when Yanukovytch decided he'd do a deal with Russia instead, the EU backed an uprising which saw the overthrow of Ukraine's democratically elected President (the EU and it's contempt for democracy again).

Inevitably Putin retaliated and annexed the Crimea, resulting in a civil war in the Ukraine which has caused thousands of deaths and almost dragged the whole of Europe into the conflict.

Which leads onto the disaster in Syria, where Putin is now building up naval and air force bases, causing such utter mayhem (quite deliberately) that millions of refugees are flooding across the EU's open borders, amongst them, hundreds of those Daesh jidahists Cameron is so afraid of. How many of them there are, where they are, what danger they pose, no one knows, the EU's open border policy has ensured that. But we'll find out soon enough when the next bomb goes off.

Imo anyone who thinks we're safer in the EU, safer because of EU policy is deluded. Were the citizens of the Ukraine made safer by the EU ? Are the citizens of Paris safer by being in the EU ? Are the citizens of Syria safer because of the backing and encouragement the EU gave to the so-called 'moderate' islamist rabble trying to overthrow Assad ? Are we safer in this country when terrorists, because of EU policy, can travel across the continent with impunity ?

These problems won't go away if we leave the EU, because the EU won't go away, but remaining isn't going to make us any safer, far from it. In reality we rely on NATO and the goodwill of Uncle Sam for our security, not those clowns in Brussels.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
soapylily (IP Logged)
24 February, 2016 23:00
Quote:
BC2
Ah yes,
Imo anyone who thinks we're safer in the EU, safer because of EU policy is deluded.
Well there is 13 of them here BC:
[www.telegraph.co.uk]

I doubt the Telegraph will print my letter in reply but here it is:

Sir,

Like Downing Street's well cooked baker's dozen of former military senior officers (letters, 24 Feb) I too have served around the world and, albeit at a much more humble level, have helped keep Britain safe.
Having served in United States Joint Staff organisations; at sea on the staff of a US Fleet Commander; ashore in the US Fifth Fleet Commander's Coalition Gulf HQ as well as on NATO working groups in Brussels and for the now defunct Western European Union I must disagree with those illustrious former leaders. I have never heard a US or coalition staff officer or indeed any senior US officer suggesting the EUs' military policies and organisation brought anything other than an added layer of confusion and distraction to the effectiveness of military command and control functions.

Still,

maybe its us thats deluded!

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
BC2 (IP Logged)
24 February, 2016 23:19
Yes I saw that soapy, another 10 Downing St. tax-payer funded propaganda exercise. I wonder if any of that motley crew were involved in the Basra debacle ? Jackson for one is a possibility.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
soapylily (IP Logged)
24 February, 2016 23:56
[sub][/sub]Oh dear and now FM the Lord Bramall was saying he was pressured by No10 and the DTT is tracking down those who declined to sign! Trouble at 't mill for Cameron without a doubt over this arm twisting which makes A Campbell look as though he couldn't spin a top! Jackson was among them but Gen Rose who I have met and is a top bloke was included in error!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/02/2016 00:00 by soapylily.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
25 February, 2016 12:14
Notice when TTIP is mentioned, no response is there CE.Boggles my mind, can only say they have done a great job of keeping the populace uninformed and nullified.Cameron is their boy aided and abetted by the obvious crew.There is at least a little more rebellion, although not much, to the Pacific version. The only delay in the deal being finalised is the uncertainty to our staying in.If we vote out all bets are off. They will use all the powers of heaven and earth, much of which they already own or control, to make sure we stay in.The average person does not have a clue what strategy has been going on for years and TTIP being agreed will legaly legitimise and enforce it.NEO LIBERALISM...know what that means ?then wise up before you go in that polling booth. Give yourself a fighting chance, it is your last chance. VOTE OUT.

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
colinwaldron (IP Logged)
25 February, 2016 12:41
Sorry Brian my vote cancels your out(Sm14)



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Ex Aintree Naps Champion
Ex Naps Champion
Ex Cheltenham Naps Champion

 
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Dave Thomas (IP Logged)
25 February, 2016 17:44
IF we vote out, if we exit... just watch and see how many others follow that lead.

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